that’s very true. capitalism has changed throughout the centuries and the version that we have now is significantly different than how it existed in the past.

when i use the words like capitalism or liberalism i’m referring to their present day incarnations because that’s how the world uses them; but there’s definitely a disconnect between westerners and the rest of the world. the western world (americans in particular) use the centuries old definitions of both words that conflates capitalism and liberalism together; but the present day situation is very different and those old definitions are incapable of lending themselves to political analysis of the modern day world because of these old definitions.

in other words: liberalism was the leftist movement that could “liberate” the world from its monarchical hegemony and capitalism was its most dominant political theory. liberalism slowly became the world’s hegemony, but now it’s become neoliberalism and leftism now stands in opposition to neoliberal hegemony.

“thriving on mutual cooperation” speaks to time long before the ancient greeks or romans. recognizable modern humanity (ie toolmaking, painting, sculptures, religion, trade, etc.) has existed for roughly 70 thousand years and the existence of the greeks, romans, or even capitalism is roughly less than 6,000 years old. in other words capitalism has existed for roughly less than 8% of humanity’s history and even then, the version of capitalism practiced back then was very different than the version we practice now.

and it’s clear that you went to school at trump university or prager u you since you’re responding with a very maga talking point that tries to conflate ordinary slavery with the american slave trade.

on the off chance that you’re genuinely ignore of it; i would recommend googling or asking chatgpt why the transatlantic slave trade was different that ordinary slavery.

mutual cooperation for tens of thousands of years speaks to the human prehistory; long before tsarist russia was a thing.

also the type of capitalism that existed during feudalism/serfdom is not the same as the one we have now; it wasn’t the dominant hegemony at the time.

I mean, the bronze age took place during class society, and it wasn’t even that long ago compared to the time anatomical humans have existed. As for whether past cruelty would make modern people look like saints. If we’re talking about Joe right across the street or something, sure, why not. But we have had non stop bombings, coups, invasions, sanctions and so on for a while, I consider modern capitalists to be more cruel as a class than many kings of old.

They said “tens of thousands of years” and you thought that meant two centuries before the Russian Revolution. I think you’ve mistaken dominant narratives of history as a European discipline with what has actually happened in the past. Yes, there are very many accounts of hierarchal violence, but that isn’t descriptive of how human beings behave. Most of what we’ve built has come from cooperation (think about how dependent the internet infrastructure is on free labour and cooperation) and the greatest obstacle we’ve faced as our communities grow is the exploitation that arises from patriarchal hierarchies. Exploitation is the site of those brutalities youre referring to.

Marx also wasn’t a historian, and wasn’t very knowledgeable about societies outside of Europe at all. That isn’t something we can fault him for as though it was his responsibility, but it is something you need to take into account if you’re going to engage with this progressive history model (Hegel didn’t know about’em either).

Kathleen Duval makes an interesting argument in Native Nations that we have evidence that indigenous Americans, in particular those who lived in relation to the Cahokia (Mississippian) civilisation, intentionally altered the trajectory of their social organization in response to this same exploitation. This isn’t to say hierarchy never existed again, though certainly in a less stratified way than the European settlers that arrived a couple centuries later, but it does teach us that humans do not want to live that way, which means they do not have to.

Where did I say debt and slavery are the same thing?

I saw a half dozen messages in this thread about how humans used to be good or some bullshit, with no backing. I’m responding to that.

Prove your point with historical data or don’t, but don’t argue about some unrelated topic.

When was this? How good are the records from this time? Seems like for at least the last 12000 years (biblical era) we were for the most part miserable, diseased, and exploitative

it bet we’ll get gun equity before we get healthcare, childcare, or educational equity. lol

I think you need to go to HR for an hour long meeting about what jokes are.