cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18475086
I’m not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
Sex work is work.
The people that do it deserve respect, and all the social and legal protections that attach to any other kind of work.
Your own preferred attitude to sex isn’t the point.
But should it be work?
Should we really have a society where selling your body is an opportunity to make money.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
I can barely tolerate the physical straining we put on some workers. Sex work’s consequences are unacceptable to me in that same sens, sometimes worse.
So sure, no matter your opinion we should respect them, and not incriminate them!
And of course not all sex work is the same… to be acceptable it just requires better conditions. It can’t be something you choose out of need.
Regulations would help, but create their own hurdles.
True and tested.
The best help is probably indirectly having better social policies overall. Although never perfect, the best we are the lesser the problem.
I don’t approve of work.
I’m of the opinion that if you don’t want people performing sex work, you should be enacting measures to improve people’s quality of life to where that’s not their only option. The workers themselves should have legal protections and be permitted to perform their job like any other worker is.
I suspect some people would prefer that as a regulated option anyway, and they should be defended in their choice to do so. Sex work is work.
Moreover, if you don’t want people doing sex work, then you probably especially don’t want people to be forced into doing sex work. But that’s precisely what happens when you criminalize it: you make it so that the only way the demand can be satisfied is through a shady black market where trafficking is orders of magnitude more likely to take place, and you make it orders of magnitude more difficult for victims and witnesses to go to the authorities to report it.
I generally agree with you, but it is so complicated. I read a piece in The Nation a few years ago (written 2019) and whenever I see a question like this I have to dig it up. Sex workers in Spain applied to become a union (OTRAS, for short, full name basically means “the other women") and were approved in August 2018. Here are a few snippets:
After OTRAS was legalized, its two dozen or so members—who include women and men, both trans and cisgender—quickly found themselves engulfed in a national controversy. Prominent activists, academics, and media personalities swarmed social media under the hashtag #SoyAbolicionista (“I’m an Abolitionist”) to denounce what they saw as basic exploitation masquerading as the service economy. The union’s opponents argue that in a patriarchal society, women can’t be consenting parties in a paid sexual act born of financial necessity. They liken sex work to slavery, hence their name: “abolitionists.”
OTRAS calls this abolitionist opposition “the industry.” “They live really well off of their discussions, books, workshops, conferences, without ever including sex workers,” Necro says. “We’re not allowed to attend the feminist conventions.” OTRAS accuses “the industry” and the government—the two loudest arms of the abolitionist camp—of racism and classism, and is irked by their claims to feminism. “A government that refuses to guarantee the rights of the most vulnerable, poorest women with the highest number of immigrants? How is that feminist?” Borrell bristles. “We’re the feminists, the ones fighting for their rights.”
While advocates for legalization argue that it will make sex work safer, abolitionists counter that it could instead endanger women who, unlike the members of OTRAS, did not choose to enter the profession on their own. Abolitionists frame their anti-prostitution stance around the issue of human trafficking, specifically for prostitution. They argue that regulating sex work will simply allow traffickers to exploit women under legal cover.
“The trafficked women have no papers, so if police raid a club, the women have no choice but to say they’re there because they want to be,” says Rocío Nieto […] Once law enforcement is out of earshot, Nieto says, “none of the women tell you they want to be there. None of them tell you they want to do that work.”
A handful of smaller radical-left parties also back OTRAS, as well as one unlikely ally: the right-wing Ciudadanos party, known for its harsh anti-immigration stance, among other more traditionally conservative postures. “Experience shows us that when the State refuses to regulate, the mafias make the rules,” the party’s press corps wrote me in an e-mail.
Sex work is going to happen whether it’s legal or not. Might as well regulate it and provide sex workers with a legal framework, healthcare, retirement funds, etc.
Sex work is work, and work (tying your capacity for labor to your continued survival) is bad. Sex workers should be supported like any member of the proletariat
Sex labor on the other hand? Sure as long as you have removed the exploitive element that comes with work.
Sex work is a more respectable career than debt collector, or CEO.
Exactly. Perfect example of labor owning the means of production.
I’ll kinda take a different approach since everyone’s covered the basics with sex work. The problem with how you’ve presented it, is you’re defining an act on how you perceive and want to regulate it. The simple question becomes, “should people have bodily autonomy?”
Everyone has a different opinion on what can be considered intimate/romantic. Some people feel a full body massage is too intimate, others a dinner with a co-worker is too romantic (not agreeing, just throwing out examples). If we start regulating based on how someone feels something should be perceived than it’s a slippery slope. I can fully understand that you believe sex to be romantic while also realizing that others don’t feel the same way or view it as a positive aspect of it. If it’s not being forced on you then it shouldn’t be a problem what consenting adults do in privacy.
Great point, thanks for bringing it up
Yes
When I see that I think both should be illegal.
At least that’s a consistent viewpoint. What I despise is demonizing sex work but not exploitative labor practices. It’s totally illogical to me that people will pride themselves on working 12+ hour days, skip breaks, come in on days off, work nights and weekends and holidays, etc but look down on people who have an OnlyFans or whatever. I don’t really understand criticizing one without the other.
Personally, I don’t give a shit about sex work. If it were fully legal and workers were protected and everything, I still don’t know that I would pay for it, but I sure as shit wouldn’t fight to take that choice away from others. It just wouldn’t really affect me. Same thing for access to safe drugs or abortions. I’m not going to advocate for other people to not have choices in their personal freedoms, so I guess I’ll fight for people to have access even for things I’m not that interested in for myself.
Oh I agree with you on sex work in the present day. I just go a step further for the future. People should work because they want to, not have to. The value of a person’s work should not determine the value of the person. One thing I do wonder though. If we didn’t have to work, many people still would because they enjoy the work. Would people do sex work in that situation? If they want to, I support thier right to do so. But it was a thought that came to me reading this post, that I haven’t fully explored in my head yet.
Excellent question. Idk, I can see indirect sex work like camming or porn still happening because that could be connected to a desire to perform for an audience. Maybe less prostitution but I’m almost certain that it wouldn’t go away completely.
Well, I suppose by the time we no longer have to work for a living, we will easily have extremely good sex robots. So it will probably be an irrelevant question.
I approve of sex work, but I don’t approve of the abusive madams and pimps of the world. Usually, they are the problem. Protection should come in a different way.
Do I approve of sex work?
So, yes, sorta, mostly, but I don’t think it’s straight forward.
For one, sex work is a very broad category that ranges from selling feet pics to having sex to which you wouldn’t otherwise consent with strangers. So under that large umbrella of “jobs wherein you assist someone with getting their rocks off in exchange for money” there’s a lot of variation and differing considerations for the impacts on the workers and the clients.
So I guess I approve of sex work in the general sense that I approve of any service industry labor that doesn’t intrinsically harm the worker or the consumer. But on the other hand, sex work, particularly having sex, and even stuff short of having sex, bares some higher risk than your average behind-the-counter job. There’s risks of violence, disease, and emotional or psychological harm, some of which is higher because of illegality or stigma, but some of which is higher simply because of the intrinsically intimate nature of sex. And sure, there is something kinda squicky about commodifying human intimacy.
But on the other hand, the demand is there (not like I don’t consume porn), so the supply will always follow to meet it. So best you can do is ensure that whatever labor sex workers do is as safe as possible, and that the people who do the labor do so freely (to the degree possible in a society that’s still capitalist).
I personally don’t see anything wrong with it, unless it’s forced, which is unfortunately common here.
There are other ways in which we sell our bodies in exchange for resources. A lot of people point to soldiers, but for those of us in knowledge work, we sell our brains in exchange for stress and depression if things aren’t in balance. Think about construction workers who break their wrists drilling down floorboards, or caregivers that expose their immune systems to a high quantity of kids who are likely to spread any bugs they pick up because they don’t know better.
Sex work just involves people selling entertainment or enjoyment in a more intimate setting. The fact that it is intimate doesn’t change that it’s work, and that resources can be exchanged for service.
I think this all comes down to stereotypes specific to a certain culture. Hoping I see my culture in America make it more legal so we don’t have some of the issues that come from this market not being legal
I think it should be legal, with extra protections for the workers to protect them from exploitation and abuse. Unfortunately though, our entire economic system is exploitative, so I’m not sure if it would ever entirely be by choice that somebody turned to prostitution, though labor itself is never entirely by choice. I only work at my job because I have to, not because I really want to. A worker selling their body to perform legal labor for money is on par with a person selling their body for another’s sexual gratification. Making it illegal just makes it worse for the workers, since they’re obviously going to do it anyways and won’t get any protections from the law.
Sex doesn’t always have to be for love, equating it with love is something religious people have forced on the world to get over their own religion-induced guilt over the whole thing. Bonobos have a crazy amount of sex and use it for all sorts of social interactions, it’s something animals do to feel good and relieve stress. There’s instances of other primates even engaging in prostitution as well, where they trade sex for food, and prostitution is one of, if not the oldest job among humans.
No matter what happens, so long as humans exist, they will want to fuck how they like. Its natural for a product of evolution to do it, the taboos against it exist only in our minds (aside from age limitations and informed consent; we still need to be rational) The more it gets stigmatized the worse it’ll get for people not already on top of the social heap.
If you believe that laws forbidding gambling, sale of liquor, sale of contraceptives, requiring definite closing hours, enforcing the Sabbath, or any such, are necessary to the welfare of your community, that is your right and I do not ask you to surrender your beliefs or give up your efforts to put over such laws. But remember that such laws are, at most, a preliminary step in doing away with the evils they indict. Moral evils can never be solved by anything as easy as passing laws alone. If you aid in passing such laws without bothering to follow through by digging in to the involved questions of sociology, economics, and psychology which underlie the causes of the evils you are gunning for, you will not only fail to correct the evils you sought to prohibit but will create a dozen new evils as well.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
hey look reactionary content from .world! Shocked
Sex work is work.
