This is just nonsense, though. You’re focused entirely on a vague ideal over what has a concrete impact on benefiting the working classes. Further, no, you can’t speak freely in the EU, pro-Palestine protestors are arrested frequently in Europe. Of course you don’t embody a class based on ideas, but you did say capitalist speech, as in the speech of capitalists in my interpretation.
You’re focused entirely on a vague ideal over what has a concrete impact on benefiting the working classes
No, what im focusing more on is the objective balance of power when it comes to control of media and the outlets for collective expression and discussion.
The subjective idea of “benefit” and / or “happiness” is not as important for a materialist as the actual power structure.
you can’t speak freely in the EU
Yea, which is why I specifically was talking about protecting peaceful discussions about the system of governance and activism in that area.
There, an European communist organization. Still waiting on the Chinese capitalist organization.
And to be clear: it’s not like I’m particularly fond of the way EU does things in general. They are usually quite disappointing. But protecting this kind of speech is something that I will support.
No, you’re trapped in idealism by insisting on an abstract “right to organize against the system,” without contextualizing if the system is socialist or capitalist. You’re arguing for unrestrained liberalism and fascism in socialist systems. Protecting “speech” even if it is in service of fascism is not a good thing.
Wrong again. And this time Im starting to feel insulted with such gratuituous accusation. Fascism needs to be exposed, dismantled… Not allowed to fester… it should be studied in schools and disarmed… not hidden from view and let to develop in the shadows. You are (intentionally?) misrepresenting my argument.
You are the one trapped in idealism since you are unable to see the objective power imbalance and instead seem to want to look for moral benefit/happiness…
Allowing fascist newspapers and fascist speech to fester out in the open, rather than shutting it doen, is letting it grow. I’m not at all “trapped in idealism” by saying that fascist speech should be censored by the working classes.
“The free press is the ubiquitous vigilant eye of a people’s soul, the embodiment of a people’s faith in itself, the eloquent link that connects the individual with the state and the world… It is the mind of the state that can be delivered into every cottage more cheaply than material gas.”
Karl Marx
Yes, what context was he writing about here? Do you think he was also in favor of asking the bourgeoisie nicely to give up their power? Here’s Marx talking about putting “right” over the level of development of society:
But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
A genuine free press can only happen in communist society after class struggle has ended.
No, he was in favor of giving the power to the working class, not to some elite that limits what the working class can do, learn about or be exposed to.
“The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves.”
Yes, so the working classes censoring the speech of liberals and fascists to prevent the restoration of bourgeois rule is absolutely in the rights of the working classes to do. A socialist state thetefore should be able to crack down on liberals and fascists, and not let their ideas fester freely.
Europe has pro-Nazi organizations, but they are clandestine. In the same way as China opens the door for capitalist talking points by openly censoring them, Europe gives munition to nazis by refusing to let them expose themselves. Nazism is a stupid ideology that would not stand its ground were its mask to fall.
There are documentaries protesting against neonazis and talking about their proliferation and rise… but I can’t check and link them because they are not allowed, “not available in your country”, particularly in Germany.
I’m convinced that if the reality of nazism was more public, antifascist sentiment would rise.
Can you link to me government officials openly declaring themselves nazis? …I want the actual direct declaration.
I think the reason they got the government is PRECISELY because they keep the mask. Trump has already said multiple times he’s not a nazi, do you think he would win approval if he came out and said he is?
Elon Musk did a seig heil on stage to a roaring crowd for Trump’s inauguration. He did it twice. His punishment? They appointed him the head of a government task force and then he wrecked a bunch of agencies in the name of “”“efficiency”“”
I personally don’t think it works. The EU continues having a lot of neonazis… I’d argue it’s likely the place with most neonazis in the world for its population size (though of course I can’t say with certainty since we can’t monitor them properly).
Whether the censorship actually helps is a highly contested debate here… having nazis operating in the shadows is actually way more scary and dangerous, being unable to openly debate them makes us more vulnerable… I would personally be happier if they were exposed so they could be openly challenged and people could see what they are and how to prepare. Instead, they are selective and secretive, use the censorship as a tool to act as victims and try and recruit from clandestinity whenever they see a vulnerable target.
This is just nonsense, though. You’re focused entirely on a vague ideal over what has a concrete impact on benefiting the working classes. Further, no, you can’t speak freely in the EU, pro-Palestine protestors are arrested frequently in Europe. Of course you don’t embody a class based on ideas, but you did say capitalist speech, as in the speech of capitalists in my interpretation.
No, what im focusing more on is the objective balance of power when it comes to control of media and the outlets for collective expression and discussion.
The subjective idea of “benefit” and / or “happiness” is not as important for a materialist as the actual power structure.
Yea, which is why I specifically was talking about protecting peaceful discussions about the system of governance and activism in that area.
I can link you to communist groups in the EU. Here’s one: https://www.eurcomact.org/
There, an European communist organization. Still waiting on the Chinese capitalist organization.
And to be clear: it’s not like I’m particularly fond of the way EU does things in general. They are usually quite disappointing. But protecting this kind of speech is something that I will support.
No, you’re trapped in idealism by insisting on an abstract “right to organize against the system,” without contextualizing if the system is socialist or capitalist. You’re arguing for unrestrained liberalism and fascism in socialist systems. Protecting “speech” even if it is in service of fascism is not a good thing.
Wrong again. And this time Im starting to feel insulted with such gratuituous accusation. Fascism needs to be exposed, dismantled… Not allowed to fester… it should be studied in schools and disarmed… not hidden from view and let to develop in the shadows. You are (intentionally?) misrepresenting my argument.
You are the one trapped in idealism since you are unable to see the objective power imbalance and instead seem to want to look for moral benefit/happiness…
Allowing fascist newspapers and fascist speech to fester out in the open, rather than shutting it doen, is letting it grow. I’m not at all “trapped in idealism” by saying that fascist speech should be censored by the working classes.
“The free press is the ubiquitous vigilant eye of a people’s soul, the embodiment of a people’s faith in itself, the eloquent link that connects the individual with the state and the world… It is the mind of the state that can be delivered into every cottage more cheaply than material gas.” Karl Marx
Yes, what context was he writing about here? Do you think he was also in favor of asking the bourgeoisie nicely to give up their power? Here’s Marx talking about putting “right” over the level of development of society:
A genuine free press can only happen in communist society after class struggle has ended.
No, he was in favor of giving the power to the working class, not to some elite that limits what the working class can do, learn about or be exposed to.
“The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves.”
Yes, so the working classes censoring the speech of liberals and fascists to prevent the restoration of bourgeois rule is absolutely in the rights of the working classes to do. A socialist state thetefore should be able to crack down on liberals and fascists, and not let their ideas fester freely.
So Neo-Nazis should be free to organize and spread propaganda freely?
Do you condemn Germany for not having main stream pro-Nazi organizations like you condemn China for not having capitalist ones?
Again, they should be exposed.
Europe has pro-Nazi organizations, but they are clandestine. In the same way as China opens the door for capitalist talking points by openly censoring them, Europe gives munition to nazis by refusing to let them expose themselves. Nazism is a stupid ideology that would not stand its ground were its mask to fall.
There are documentaries protesting against neonazis and talking about their proliferation and rise… but I can’t check and link them because they are not allowed, “not available in your country”, particularly in Germany.
I’m convinced that if the reality of nazism was more public, antifascist sentiment would rise.
Explain the US, where there is no censorship of pro-Nazi opinions and yet mask-off pro-Nazi ideology made it into the government.
Your thesis, that censorship just makes ideology stronger, isn’t borne out by how Nazis are coming to power in the real world.
Mask-off??
Can you link to me government officials openly declaring themselves nazis? …I want the actual direct declaration.
I think the reason they got the government is PRECISELY because they keep the mask. Trump has already said multiple times he’s not a nazi, do you think he would win approval if he came out and said he is?
You are making the point for me.
Elon Musk did a seig heil on stage to a roaring crowd for Trump’s inauguration. He did it twice. His punishment? They appointed him the head of a government task force and then he wrecked a bunch of agencies in the name of “”“efficiency”“”
Did you forget? It’s only been a year.
So your answer is yes, you condemn Germany for censoring Nazis?
So you oppose the outlawing of neo-Nazi speech in much of the EU? Or are you a raging hypocrite?
I personally don’t think it works. The EU continues having a lot of neonazis… I’d argue it’s likely the place with most neonazis in the world for its population size (though of course I can’t say with certainty since we can’t monitor them properly).
Whether the censorship actually helps is a highly contested debate here… having nazis operating in the shadows is actually way more scary and dangerous, being unable to openly debate them makes us more vulnerable… I would personally be happier if they were exposed so they could be openly challenged and people could see what they are and how to prepare. Instead, they are selective and secretive, use the censorship as a tool to act as victims and try and recruit from clandestinity whenever they see a vulnerable target.