I don’t usually have sufficient motivation to post much on any social media platform. This is rare for me. I am putting this out in the world in part hoping for some validation, in part hoping it sparks some kind of social action to save some semblance of privacy and dignity in this modern world.
Warning: this is long.
I just wrote an email to a recruiter withdrawing my interest in pursuing a job (it’s a recruiter hired by the hiring company). I am a software engineer with decades of experience who has been unemployed for almost a year with almost no interviews. I’m hungry for paying work. Yet. I did this. Below is the email I wrote, and it is hopefully self explanatory.
I think my career might be over - especially if the kind of process I experienced is now the standard for hiring. I want nothing to do with it.
I wrote this after multiple days of trying to set up my system for the “assessment”. I ended up having to install Windows 11 (I’m a Linux guy) because the assessment environment simply didn’t work. I tried FireFox, disabled plugins, tried two versions of Chrome - neither would work. It apparently had to be the Google version.
I upgraded an old version of Win 10 (because Microsoft pretty much forced it). Got it to work on Firefox for Windows.
Twice, mid-way through the assessment, it reset itself to square one. I didn’t try a third time. This assessment software monitored my face and would raise an alarm if I looked away. It controlled my microphone. It required full access to every aspect of the browser and had me do an alt-tab partway through this “test” in order to ensure I wasn’t using any other software. Insulting. Invasive. My equipment. My home.
---- the email ----8<----
First, I appreciate your understanding and that you gave me what information you have on how this software works. Now, the hard part. My disappointment will show in the text, and it is not directed at you or your company.
I’m inclined to cease pursuing this. I feel insulted by the process in the first place, but went through it understanding that we, as job seekers, have to accept compromises we would not otherwise accept because having a job is a fundamental requirement to literally survive and provide for our children.
However, the more I’m expected to change my personal, owned equipment and software in an invasive fashion just so some stranger can have 100% surveillance on my activities in my home in order to be considered for a job interview, the more insulted I become.
Granted, I’m unusual. I’ve dedicated myself to protecting my electronic privacy by installing malware and advertisement blockers on my phones, computers, tablets. I use VPN. I built my own home NAS because I am uncomfortable with placing all my personal, financial, and health records into “the cloud” (and being charged for the privilege). I am teaching myself how to use AI by downloading and running models in my home lab because I don’t want to give out my privacy and income to strangers.
I stopped using Windows at home years ago because I could not stand the way it was dictating to me how to run my computer and constantly seeking to part me from my money with distracting advertisements while siphoning everything about me back to their servers to better market to me. Worse, it was forcing me to buy new hardware in order to simply run the system after upgrades.
Here I am, faced with a stark choice. Debase my values for the sake of the possibility of a job with a company that apparently doesn’t consider applicants worthy of dignity, or remain unemployed - possibly forced to exit the career I love if everybody is doing this - and potentially fall into poverty.
If they’re doing this before they even talk to me, it tells me that as an employee I will have at minimum this same level of surveillance. Knowing this in the back of my mind will burn me out in under six months.
Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live with myself if I chose the first option, so I respectfully withdraw myself from this process. I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
That’s really well said.
I remember being in the same situation a couple years ago in which I was accepted to an interview through a video chat web application hosted by the company.
To my horror, when I joined the meeting, it was not a video chat interview. It was a series of recorded clips of their HR person reading off questions, the clips pausing, and then a timer showing up on the screen noting “You have 15 seconds to answer”.
I was so put off by this that after the first question, I decided to spend the rest of the time I was being recorded explaining to them under no uncertainties that this was one of the most unprofessional interview processes I had ever engaged in, and that they had made it clear that they did not value my time whatsoever, so I had no reason to reciprocate.
Yeah. I half expect that if I went to the next step, I’d be in an AI Zoom interview next.
I went through the exact same thing with Dyson back in ~2018 worst interview process I’ve ever experienced.
Jesus. That’s brutal. I’m not in the software world and have never experienced an process like you just described.
I do remember feeling similarly disgusted years ago applying for a retail job where I had to do an insulting “phone” interview/test where a computer asked me a bunch (like 20-30) of dumb fucking questions like:
- “Have you ever stolen money from your job?”
- “Do you think it’s okay to come to work drunk?”
- “If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That last question very specifically is one I’ll always remember because of how incredibly stupid and insulting it is.
I hope you find work at a company that respects you as a human being and as a professional.
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
No, I fucking wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t like to work for anyone who wouldn’t hire me because of that fact.
Neither would I. They can deduct it from the running tab of money vending machines have stolen from me over the years, the pricks.
How dare you not compensate the Coca Cola company for its loss, through its own actions, of a few pennies! You monster! Terrorist!
I had it happen to me occasionally in a work setting many years ago. I was calling it getting a crit from the vendor machine. Happy times.
I answered it “No”, because it’s so dumb. Back then I needed the job so I made the compromise, and I was so happy when I was able to leave that job.
I’d probably give the extra item to someone, even if a stranger, but I certainly wouldn’t put more money in the machine. Especially considering most machines just give the money back if there’s no purchase made. What a dumb question.
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That is wild.
The vending company factors this into the prices they charge for the items, the amount they spend on the machine to ensure accuracy, and the amount they pay the people who stock the machines to do it properly.
If you take it upon yourself to unilaterally re-balance the equation, you’re not being noble, you’re just a fool.
Exactly! That question was later in the “test”, and my eyes were already rolling so hard. When I got that question I was dumbfounded by how stupid it is
The last one isn’t one that would generally disqualify you, more to catch you lying. There doesn’t exist people who would put more money in a vending machine because it’s a stupid idea and vending machines don’t work that way.
Ethical answers to that range from the utilitarian give it to someone hungry to the deontological leave it since it’s not yours. But putting more money into a malfunctioning vending machine is chaotic stupid on the ethical charts.
That’s a fair point.
As a rule (at least for me), never never ever accept take home assignments or tasks that either require full control of your pc, or requires you to pull some sketchy repository from GitHub.
That’s one way to get infected with malware and potentially have your data stolen.
If you have to absolutely do this, do it on a VM.
But 99.99999% of the cases, there’s no need to install control software to a pc or having a 3rd party lib installed.
If a recruiting company requires this, then it’s a red flag.
You did well. You’ll find something soon.
Stay strong!
It was not the recruiting company. It was the hiring company. They don’t give the recruiters any details on the process because they don’t want the recruiters coaching the candidates (the ultimate in distrust, let me tell you. Unfortunately, probably based on experience). I literally had to install an extension that had 100% access to everything in the browser so they could read/see everything I was doing, realtime.
I had one take-home project before landing my prior job. I did the best I could, handed it over, and all I got was “we decided to go with someone else”, with zero discussion of what they thought of the work. So, yeah. Not doing that again.
I have been pretty positive about assignments as an assessment process since it enables seeing actual work instead of memorisation skills, but out of the few times I have had one of these…
- 1 of them wanted me to agree to not sharing my work anywhere, so that they would be the only ones keeping my output. I realised they just wanted free work and declined.
- 1 of them required me to run an “AI benchmarking” thingy, which ran connected to the network. Essentially, they wanted free CPU cycles to run whatever model they were running. I dropped it after reading 0.1% of the code in the repo.
I’m a highly experienced developer staying in a very low-paid job because the work is not for an unethical purpose and there’s relatively little employee surveillance or corporate politics. I know developers aren’t in a powerful position right now but I admire your reaction. It’s no way to treat people, and they won’t stop treating candidates disrespectfully until they see that it hurts their ability to hire. I expect the day will come soon when I have to make a decision like you and could be forced to leave this field.
a very low-paid job because the work is not for an unethical purpose
Are you hiring?
Unfortunately not. They haven’t hired anyone in years.
I’m not surprised. It seems like only the unethical companies have growth and turnover these days.
I know developers aren’t in a powerful position right now
I think we’re always in a somewhat powerful position, as we can always create our own shit, like we always did. Look at us here.
You made the right choice. I was treated with more respect when I was flipping burgers in college.
The hiring company failed the interview. It happens, and IMO you’ve exercised good judgement here.
My personal suspicion is that this sort of inhumane, inhuman, hiring process filters for people who are either desperate for work, or who don’t see anything wrong with this sort of thing.
I totally agree. It’s a test of submission. I bet my life savings that job would have increasingly creeping amounts of unpaid work and extended working hours, with the implicit threat that saying no means you’re fired.
You mean like my last job. Yes, it was the insulting treatment at my most recent employer that gave me an extra bit of self respect that pushed me to make that decision. The proverbial last straw.
I’ve told recruiters that if they don’t allow remote work then they can fly me out for an interview if they want more than a phone call.
That’s the funny part - they have offices about 15 minutes from where I live and it’s a hybrid job.
Then could you not do this testing on a machine at their office? What the heck?
Probably because they moved there executive offices last year to someplace far away. Funny how we have to be creative and figure how to “git 'er done” but "they’ don’t, isn’t it?
I’ve been in the industry for decades, and perform interviews for entry level up to and including principal level. This form of interviewing is absurd, invasive and useless. It will NOT tell you how good someone is… any monkey can write code, the real question I always try and get a handle on is:
Can they solve complex problems? How do they tear the problems apart? How do they apply technologies to do so?
In person (or video) is the ONLY way to tell how good they are.
Take home tests are useless.
Good on you for telling them no in a very professional way.
I hope you are able to find something soon, it’s a really tough market out there!!!
I experienced a similar thing a few years ago, applying for a management position with a nonprofit. (A nonprofit!)
My reply …
Hi $PERSON,
Your application was strong and we’re really pleased to advise you that you’ve progressed to the next stage.
Great! Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
We’d like you to answer a few quick questions using our online video platform, SparkHire. This will help us get to know more about you and what skills and experience you can bring to the role, the team and $NONPROFIT.
…
A set of questions will appear on the screen (some filmed, others just text) and you’ll have the opportunity to create video recordings of your answers, within a specified time limit. You can review and re-record your answers as many times as you need.
I’d love to catch up either face to face, in a video chat, or even a phone call to discuss how I could use my skills and experience to help out the $NONPROFIT team. To be honest though I’m not at all keen on recording a one-way video interview.
I do have several concerns with SparkHire (no data retention policy that I could find; and enhanced privacy protection for EU customers only; email instructions years old that referenced Flash).
But my main concern is that the idea of one-sided video interview feels … well, one-sided and dehumanising. To be honest it’s quite the opposite of what I’d have expected from the employee experience of an organisation like $NONPROFIT.
Even if I were placed in the role, I’d be reluctant to refer friends if they were also required to participate in a one-sided video interview.
Please drop me an email at $EMAIL or give me a call on $PHONE if you’d like to chat further, either virtually or in person.
Don’t give up. This invasive testing happens with companies that outsource HR…I have always refused these tests and refused anything that requires take home evaluations.
Last time I was job hunting, I rigged my resume to pass AI filters and get to a headhunter. Once a resume is in front of a human, things are different.
Getting through the 1000 resumes and being the one they look at is the key, and crafting a resume that checks all the AI requirements is the key
Instead of declining the role, you should have told them their assessment platform is so broken that it’s undoubtedly costing them good applicants, and that you’d be happy to make that your first project as a staff engineer.
It’s a product they use, not their own. If I were talking to the actual company rep, I might have given it a try.
What if the intent is to filter out people who won’t put up with this sort of shit? It might be working very well indeed from the perspective of the hiring managers.
How it would have gone for me:
“You need to install this Windows software for the assessment.”
“I don’t have Windows.”
“…”
“…”
“…”
“Bye bye.”
Well, as a .NET developer, until a few years ago, that hang-up would have been totally justified.
I kept windows in some form for .NET development until Core became viable. Even now I have to keep it around, even in hardware bootable form. VM is insufficient when windows is required to update the BIOS. (Thanks, Lenovo.)
We need to bring back Unemployed Councils.
I had to read up on that to know what it was about. While I’m all in on unions and collective bargaining, I’m not keen on Communism as a political approach. the original idea was a plausible answer to the woes of the struggle between groups of people, but it does not acknowledge that the problem is human behavior. Specifically, a portion of the population that will always seek dominance, regardless of the means or declared ideology. This is what happened with Communism. The assassination of the white revolution in order to insert the red revolution is class 101 in that fact. The United States’ founders understood this, which is why I’m still behind the checks and balances approach to power.
Yes, it eventually is subverted and must be re-established (sometimes forcefully) but it is as Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government… except for all the rest.
The increased use of automated systems only further dehumanizes the workplace. We need to seriously start thinking about how we’re going to survive when human labour is no longer sought by the entities that control all the resources.
Current events in Iran might provide an idea.
Why would you feel bad, the interview is a 2 way process. They are evaluating you but YOU are also evaluating them. It’s actually VERY costly to you too if you start working for the wrong company. If you realize after a week or a month that truly the culture, the tooling, etc basically anything but the pay does not match YOUR needs, whatever they may be, they you HAVE to pull out.
You can be polite about removing your application, as you were, but you should not feel bad. It is precisely WHY there are interview. Candidate think about it as only them being evaluated and that’s very wrong. As your title says clearly it is about self respect but not just during the interview, the whole time. If you are not a match sure it does suck, for both, but that’s again better than a forced match that will bring both down over time.
Finally regarding your last part, I recommend you edit your post to put your precise skillset and experience there. Hopefully someone can refer you to the right place.
