Just going to keep posting this every time it comes up.
We could reduce energy and materials cost of global production worldwide to 30% current capacity by planning production instead of leaving it to the market, and greatly increase the standard of living for everyone on this planet. But first we have to get rid of capitalism and institute democratic socialist planning.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7n1POfYMo1I3kcy0oqSm6l?si=8ikYVJN8TIupvjoaCMRssA
But first we have to get rid of capitalism and institute democratic socialist planning.
All strains of Socialism are democratic, it’s a bit redundant to include unless you’re trying to emphasize the democratic factor as opposed to our current system.
Yes this is what I believe as well but to many people Socialism is synonymous with authoritarianism. Many of those people are amenable to Socialist ideas if not able to be won over completely as you and I have been.
Also, (not to begin the debate about AES) but I think its fair to say that where many socialist projects have failed is in the arena of democracy. Maybe its just a feature of the tradition I come from, but to me that commitment to democracy has to be constantly renewed. Not bourgeois democracy but worker democracy. The working class has to learn real democracy in order to engage in political struggle in preparation to overthrow the ruling class.
Lenin was constantly stressing and renewing his commitment to democratic process, which was one of the reasons he was able to create the revolutionary party after 1905 that was able to seize power in 1917. And while he had no illusions about the limitations of democratic process within his historical moment, he always “bent the stick” in that direction which in my opinion was one of the things that made him such an effective leader prior to and up through the civil war period ending in 1921.
So I will always stress the importance of democracy, not only for the historic necessity and precedent but also because it is not enough to be good materialists (and there certainly has been a history of bad ones) but also good dialectitians, which means contextualizing our project through unificatiokn of the subjective and objective; and to fail to do so is to fail to be dialectical Marxists. If I have to work and debate with some Harringtonites in the process well that is just a necessity of the historical moment.
Yes this is what I believe as well but to many people Socialism is synonymous with authoritarianism. Many of those people are amenable to Socialist ideas if not able to be won over completely as you and I have been.
That’s fair, but can backfire and delay radicalization, giving rise to “left” anticommunists that ultimately help contribute to antisocialism more than they do to pro-socialism, as their anticommunist views are magnified by bourgeois media. Chomsky, for example, is guilty of this.
Also, (not to begin the debate about AES) but I think its fair to say that where many socialist projects have failed is in the arena of democracy. Maybe its just a feature of the tradition I come from, but to me that commitment to democracy has to be constantly renewed. Not bourgeois democracy but worker democracy. The working class has to learn real democracy in order to engage in political struggle in preparation to overthrow the ruling class.
This is where idealism and practical realism need to reach a balance. Unfortunately, in the face of international Capitalist and Imperialist dominance has forced stronger measures.
Lenin was constantly stressing and renewing his commitment to democratic process, which was one of the reasons he was able to create the revolutionary party after 1905 that was able to seize power in 1917. And while he had no illusions about the limitations of democratic process within his historical moment, he always “bent the stick” in that direction which in my opinion was one of the things that made him such an effective leader prior to and up through the civil war period ending in 1921.
Yep, but Lenin also banned factionalism. He tried to combine worker participation and democracy with unity. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, of course, I just want to stress that even Lenin made concessions, and had to.
So I will always stress the importance of democracy, not only for the historic necessity and precedent but also because it is not enough to be good materialists (and there certainly has been a history of bad ones) but also good dialectitians, which means contextualizing our project through unificatiokn of the subjective and objective; and to fail to do so is to fail to be dialectical Marxists. If I have to work and debate with some Harringtonites in the process well that is just a necessity of the historical moment.
I understand, I just want to stress that you risk playing into anti-Marxist hands, which is the entire reason for DemSocs.
Honestly I find this comment irritating, as you’re basically accusing me of being a crypto-reformist, when I explicitly call for an end of capitalism. As if I’m not constantly educating myself, And others to guard against this tendency of anti-marxism. Because I used the term “democratic socialism”, regardless of the fact that I acknowledge the wrongheadedness of the reformist strains, still you say I might fall into anti Marxism. If that happens it won’t be because I acknowledge democracy; and the fact that you think so little of my actual irl work because of my use of this term is insulting.
I’m going to refrain from criticizing you point by point, as you pedantically have done to me, and insist that I’m actually a good comrade, and hope you’ll come to the realization that the movement needs us both. Otherwise we are just going to in-fight, which if I wanted to do that I would debate within the org that I work with, where I might be seen as a human, rather than online where the medium itself encourages back-biting, factionalism and elitism by design.
In other words, cut me a break comrade.
I didn’t say you were anti-Marxist, just that the term “Democratic Socialism” carries the notion of Reformist Socialism, so some may interpret it that way. I was pointing it out because I believe you’re well intentioned, comrade, not to pick a fight. I apologize if it came off in that manner.
I appreciate the clarification and good will, comrade.
All strains of Socialism are democratic
Glances nervously at the ultra-nationalist strains
Some are more democratic than others, certainly.
emphasize the democratic factor as opposed to our current system
It is exhausting to hear people smuggly denounce AES states as dysfunctional, by citing their trend towards nationalizarion of capital and popularization of policy. Particularly when the same folks will scream bloody murder if you don’t continue to mechanically endorse their brand of corporate liberalism.
I genuinely am not really sure what you’re getting at, here. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I am stating that AES is democratic as is Marxism in general, and am saying that liberals often use the nebulous, ill-defined term of “Democratic Socialism” as an AES cudgel.
liberals often use the nebulous, ill-defined term of “Democratic Socialism” as an AES cudgel.
I see liberals try to equate any kind of public sector combined with a national election system as Democratic Socialism. Which gets you the Nordic Model - a collection of petrostates with an egalitarian veneer and a white supremacist underbelly - labeled “Democratic Socialism” on paper.
Meanwhile, actual social democracies in Latin America, Africa, and East Asia are denounced as authoritarian every time the Neoliberal (or outright reactionary) local politician loses an election.
I am stating that AES is democratic as is Marxism in general
Marxism is Democratic in theory. Leninism is more popular than democratic, as Leninists aren’t wedded to electoralism like their liberal peers.
But the critique I see most often among liberals is that markets are democratic. And therefore every AES state that fails to sufficiently privatize the economy is definitely facto authoritarian.
That’s the real definitional divide between Marxists and Liberal Democrats.
Democratic centralism is generally anti-democratic. The most charitable view is it’s technocratic, but mostly it just involves power politics.
Democratic Centralism just means the decisions democratically made are binding, it’s still democratic.
In theory yes. In reality all socialist systems had surprisingly few changes of leadership after one guy rose to power of the “socialist” movement or party. And they don’t really seem to trust their citizens to be socialist without a lot of fear, censorship, spying, silencing critics…
It’s almost as if the majority of humans reject socialism. Which is weird but true.
In theory yes. In reality all socialist systems had surprisingly few changes of leadership after one guy rose to power of the “socialist” movement or party
There are numerous reasons for this. Stability in protecting revolution and genuine popular support are among the larger and more important reasons.
And they don’t really seem to trust their citizens to be socialist without a lot of fear, censorship, spying, silencing critics…
Neither are Capitalist states, and neither was Marx. Combatting international Capitalist influence was and is key for retaining Socialism.
It’s almost as if the majority of humans reject socialism. Which is weird but true.
Not true at all, actually. Those controlling the media want you to think it though.
I agree with a lot you are saying. No state can stay stable without some form of control and censorship as soon as it starts threatening the stability of the system. Capitalism does this as well. And they have a very effective propaganda machine.
I feel like capitalist propaganda is so effective because it resonates so well with the basic human instincts and the part of humans that wants to be better than others and is greedy. The monkey brain is competitive and hierarchical. Socialism requires a level of empathy and intelligence a lot of people don’t have. They not only reject it because of media but also because they wanna climb that social ladder. No fun, if it doesn’t exist.
The leaders of most socialist countries though, seemed to not stop at the anti socialist critics. Even other socialist voices that they didn’t agree with got silenced (Mao, Pol Port, Xi Jing Ping making all his ministers disappear).
Also please don’t misunderstand me. I am not arguing against socialism. I am trying to find a form of socialist society that relies on as few authority and violence as possible. I always wondered why the socialist countries struggle so much with keeping their people in, while most refugees try to get into the capitalist societies.
I feel like capitalist propaganda is so effective because it resonates so well with the basic human instincts and the part of humans that wants to be better than others and is greedy. The monkey brain is competitive and hierarchical. Socialism requires a level of empathy and intelligence a lot of people don’t have. They not only reject it because of media but also because they wanna climb that social ladder. No fun, if it doesn’t exist.
This is a massive confusion. Capitalism doesn’t “appeal to human nature,” aspects like greed are more expressed under it as they form the superstructure that reinforces the base. The base is the Mode of Production, which creates and reinforces aspects like ideology, politics, art, culture, etc which reinforce the Mode of Production in turn. Capitalism isn’t natural, humans don’t have an inherent draw to hierarchy, and Socialism doesn’t requore empathy nor intelligence to implement.
The leaders of most socialist countries though, seemed to not stop at the anti socialist critics. Even other socialist voices that they didn’t agree with got silenced (Mao, Pol Port, Xi Jing Ping making all his ministers disappear).
Pol Pot explicitly rejected Marxism, and was stopped by Vietnamese Communists. Your ideas surrounding Mao and Xi Jinping are also unsupported.
Also please don’t misunderstand me. I am not arguing against socialism. I am trying to find a form of socialist society that relies on as few authority and violence as possible. I always wondered why the socialist countries struggle so much with keeping their people in, while most refugees try to get into the capitalist societies.
You’ve already found them, it’s AES countries. They use what they need to survive in a world currently dominated by Capitalism. Over time, the state will wither away more and more, but there’s a reason that there are very, very few largish scale Anarchist projects.
Have you ever visited any of the AES Countries? They have a few rich and powerful families running everything and sucking up to daddy china. I have visited Laos and Vietnam and talked to the working people. They are suffering, barely making ends meed and are fed up with the people in power taking everything for themselves and living in luxury. And if they talk too much about it they get “visitors”. These people in power over there are not working class. There is also absolutely no basic healthcare. If you get sick you die. I am sorry but for me a socialist country does not have an elite living on luxury and it doesn’t have people dying of poverty and lack of healthcare.
Look at trendlines. This is a figure for the USSR, which often also gets slandered as you have done.
Vietnam and Laos are Socialist, and remain to be so. Socialism isn’t defined as “everyone is pleased,” it’s a transitional state to Communism. Look at metrics over time, don’t analyze immediate snapshots.
whoa whoa whoa
slow down there Karl Marx /s
Speed up there Marx!
Covid ended any hope I have. We couldn’t get people to put on a fucking mask or get vaccinations when the disease was right in front of us killing millions of people.
There’s absolutely no way we’re gonna get people on board with fighting the climate disaster. Humanity will be lucky if it survives itself.
The west is not all of humanity though.
It’s not about stopping climate change anymore. That ship has sailed and sunk.
Now its about surviving long enough to witness very bad things happening to very bad people.
witness very bad things happening to very bad people.
Yeah, not gonna happen in this life. Karma is a happy accident, not a rule
I honestly hate this rhetoric (nothing personal). Thing is, it gets worse and worse, the less we do, it’s not binary, and while the planet will not be able to support close as many people as of now, humanity will survive. But it’s very dependent on the actions we do now, how many will…
If anything, society collapses and the very wealthy carve out fiefdoms for themselves and re-create medieval feudalism. They tell people they have a God-ordained to rule over the “small folk” and they continue on living like kings, albeit in a post-apocalyptic setting.
20 years? Jamie pull that up.
Well it was 25 years in 2019, and I’d round down since we’re in September so yeah, 20 to go.
20 years before we die from climate change? Given the hellish climate we’re enduring here in south america, 10 years would be more believable
Damnit, Gritty!
Highest pollution generating countries are communist 😂
Per Capita?
Are you referring to China? Because that would be an exceptionally bad example.
Yep, taking one of the most populous countries on the planet and judging it by total emissions is ludicrous, plus the PRC is drastically improving solar panel production and infrastructure. If the world was set to the same environmental standards as the PRC we wouldn’t have nearly as much worry.
Honestly I think China will be the only country actually reaching their carbon emissionsl targets set in Paris. All these preaching democratic nations are failing theirs year after year.
Yep, hopefully their solar production forces mass adoption among other nations and we can get back on track to mitigate environmental damage.
Not just that, but pretending China isn’t capitalist is wrong.
China is Socialist. The overall system is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, categorised as a largely Market-based economy carefully pruned, planned, and controlled by the government. The state ideology is Marxism-Leninism, and Xi Jinping Thought.
The notion that China must be Capitalist because it has markets could be applied to say the US is Socialist because it has a State-Run Post Office. What’s important is the class that retains power.
In the US, private banks, large businesses, and exceedingly wealthy individuals direct the state. The state is run in their interests, and this guides policy more than anything.
In the PRC, the Proletariat is in control via the CPC. Capitalists are firmly kept in check and dealt with if they step out of line, there are large public infrastructure projects, real wages for the Proletariat are rising, and there aren’t large privitization projects.
If you don’t have a strong understanding of Marxism, it’s easy to misanalyze whether or not a system is Socialist.
April 15th 1989
The Hillsborough disaster?
“Pick Me” vibes
Nope, just being right about the CPC.
Tianamen Square was not about pollution so is unrelated.
We could be nuked today
I agree, we should focus more on climate change, though.
Climate change cannot be sufficiently addressed without oveethrowing capitalism. China built more solar capacity last year than the entirety of American installations and both American candidates support fracking.
Join a local socialist org!
Lol they also built more coal plants than the rest of the world combined in 2023
I swear you tankies are a hilariously ignorant bunch.
China did not start industrialization until 1949. Climate Change effects have been known since 1896 or 1824 depending on how you look at it. China literally did not start the fire 🔥
Lol China didn’t start the fire, but they’re literally pouring gas on it… it’s those damn western capitalist faults.
Yes, they are rapidly developing and increasing percentages of their overall power comes from renewables, especially Solar, which they have invested tons of money into R&D to make scaling that economical.
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. I said they installed more solar power than the US’s entire history, not a single year.
China is fulfilling its internationally-agreed climate commitments while the major imperialist countries do not.
You should find a more sustainable way to fulfill whatever drive makes you seek out this level of pointless smugness and guesswork gotchas.
The fuck are you talking about, they get 70% of their power from coal, they built 6 new plants in 2023. What the hell makes you think they’re going to fullfil their agreements?
It sounds like you have made no attempt whatsoever to understand. I will wait for you to tell me that you have spent five minutes looking for the relevant information. If you can’t, just tell me you couldn’t fins it and I will gladly show you.
What type of response is that…if you have proof from a factual source, then post it. Stop talking like you’re some wise tankie jedi.
Actually this is a very low bar but you managed to not clear it. This has confirmed a simple fact: you are here to fight and have no interest in the truth or learning. Obviously this was implied from the prior bad faith responses, but now we have cut to the chase.
Why should I waste my time?
I’m a communist. You guys came to debate yourselves.
?
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-59-the-destroyer-of-worlds/
I don’t remember the quote directly but it’s somewhere in the area of that;
We have gotten so used to living in the shadow of annihilation that we’ve forgotten to fear the constant threat of global destruction that nuclear war is.
This podcast really gave me some perspective on that.
