We’ve had this argument before and you haven’t convinced me this is true, especially with more immediate political concerns.

Can you please explain what these “more immediate political concerns” are that voting is more important for than organizing?

The people who say no thanks to both do not consider those two options as unique in any way. Trump and Biden are inevitable and next election will have an even worse choice. The bourgeois state is declining and in its decline it turns towards fascism. Both parties are extensions of the bourgeois state.
By voting all one doesfurther entrench the system. For a long time the arguments for voting for democrats were:

• You have to just this once it’s the most important election of all time
• Harm reduction/“lesser evil”
• This gives us more time to organise for next election.
• The US left can organise better under democrats

As time has passed these arguments have shown themselves to be based on some faulty assumptions. Or conditions have changed to such an extent that the argument no longer stands.

• “Just this once”

1. It has been “the most important election” since, at least, Reagan - With the sole exception of Clinton v. Dole. And in retrospect the hysteria seems much less worrisome. Obama ran against McCain and Romney, respectively. Romney was made out to be a religious fanatic with “binders full of women” who hated poor people “47%”. McCain was a senile warmonger with an insane VP. Both of these were quickly rehabilitated by the establishment, in death McCain was grieved by his political opponents. Dubya has been rehabilitated into the image of a quirky old man. Most democrats claim to look up to Reagan and will quote him. They almost all pursue “reaganomics”, which Reagans VP had referred to as “Voodoo economics” before adopting it himself. Good ol’ trickle down. So it is hard to believe it will be “just this once” and it is hard to believe that there is anything especially egregious about this specific republican, when this is what is always said.
2. On the other hand we can accept that every single election has been the most important election ever and we need to vote democrat or lose democracy forever. If this is really the case, then one has to wonder if a system where we don’t actually have a vote - It’s democrat or death - is worth perpetuating. One also has to wonder why the democrats, when they are in power, do not dismantle the republican party - If the republicans truly are fascists opposed to democracy. One has to wonder why democrats constantly seek to work with the republicans and speak about “bipartisanship”. The conclusions available all lead to the same place: The democrats are either complicit or completely inefficient. Thus a vote for a democrat is either inconsequential or actively harmful.

• Vote for harm reduction/lesser evil

This argument functions in the short term. However every election there’s less and less “lesser” evil. Wether they win or lose democrats make the same conclusion: They must go further to the right. The democrats are also just throwing marginalised groups under the bus (This is ignoring that democrats have been doing all the “evil” stuff on a state-level for much longer than their presidential platform reflects). Every administration since, at least, Clinton has deported more immigrants than the previous administration. Biden surpassed Trump 1 ^[1] They both suck on climate^[2], they both commit genocide, they are both expanding a police state, they’re both imperialists, they’re both giving more money to the military.
So while one side might give slightly less, the long term result of this “lesser evil” is one where more harm is produced, than the long term result of one where the system is replaced^[3].
What do you think will happen when not even genocide is too far?

• Buying time to create an alternative

1. By voting for democrats, it is harder for an alternative to seem viable, since the democrats appear to have broad support.
2. This is an argument built on thinking long term. However when someone suggests an alternative to voting for democrats, they are challenged on the immediate viability of such an action. “There is no alternative right now” or “Will not voting democrats make things better right now?” or “What will voting third party do to oppose [villain of the election] right now?”
   If we accept that the argument for voting for democrats is, in part, built on longer term planning, then we must likewise accept the longer timescope for arguments against voting democrat.
3. Democrats also crack down on left-wing organisers. Democrats also crack down on democratic movements. There are many examples, but most preciently might be Joe Bidens crackdown on anti-israel protesters or his violent crackdown on the remains of “the summer of ´20” once he came into power. He continued Trumps methods of having people disappeared in unmarked vans. It was under democratic governorship and presidency that ferguson riot leaders where assassinated and disappeared. Democrats destroy organisations that are even beneficial to themselves
4. Democrats functions a sheepdogs for the left. They are the graveyard of social movements.

• The US left can organise better under democrats

I don’t know if conditions are “better” for organising. That’s hard to say in my eyes. We have seen far more popular unrest under Trump. People are far more displeased with the regular actions of the US empire under Trump. People have become far more radicalised under Trump. The popular movements are not funnelled into or through the DNC, but instead develop organically. There are other challenges under Trump than under democrats, but “better” or “worse”? Hard to say. Internationally I would consider Trump better, because he is more incompetent.

The same commentators who through introspection can say that socialist movements across the world need to work with the USA isnt a betrayal of the revolution seemingly cannot apply the same caveated analysis to the shinier of two turds in a two party system sounds like more American exceptionalism.

This feels like a bit of a different discussion. The actions, motivations and needs of revolutionary movements engaged in military struggle around the world are different from that of the average US voter (as well as the average US leftist).
You are also conflating “voting for a democrat or a republican” with “agreeing to receive support from the US.” It’s kind of vague, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about here and tbh it is not my area of expertise. I’m going to send a link to this comment to someone else, who might be better at answering, but I’d really appreciate more specificity. Can you say what socialists movement across the world are you thinking of and what socialist commentators are you talking about?
From what I can think of: I know many people have critiqued the various Kurdish militias for cooperating with the US, the PRCs cooperation with the US during the sino-soviet split is seen by most as a massive black mark on that countrys history.
In general though I’d say that people are more forgiving of foreign movements accepting US aid because the aid helps them further towards their goals, whereas someone voting for the democrats would, at best, do nothing. The way I view it, it would make things worse for the domestic leftist to vote democrat. I can’t speak on local politics.

If you’re not voting for your “communist party of”, is this just virtue signalling?

I am voting third party. Here is a comment I wrote about leftist not voting or voting third party that whole thread has many illustrativt responses.
Here is another comment from the post, detailing my position
Here is my comment from another post
I would also recommend reading cowbees response in that comment thread.

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I think you replied to the wrong person? Otherwise this is the strangest non sequitor I’ve experienced yet

How will voting help?

It’s not really going to do anything, but it’s better than legitimising the system and entrenching genociders. Politicians use the amount of votes they receive as an argument for the legitimacy of their policies. The overarching oligarchy will exist wether you vote or not, the individuals in the structure have a much easier time of doing heinous shit if they are perceived as legitimate.
So voting for the people in power will, in a small way, make things worse.

People are arguing voting does not work because if anyone actually leftist becomes popular, then they either get buried or subsumed by the structure - Bernie Sanders is an excellent example of both. In 2016 he got cheated out of the nomination, likewise in 2020. By 2020 he had already become a sheepdog for the left, channelling popular sentiment towards the establishment.
Another example is AOC who worked as a DC staffer for a long while, then took a 6 month gig as a bartender, and then received considerable promotion by the DNC by way of constantly being discussed negatively by the party elite, which then makes her appear as a political outsider - All the while she still supports the fundamental structure of the US as well as the DNC. She was a diehard supporter of Joe Biden as well as voting for Israel whenever it was needed, and running defence for things like the “Iron Dome”.
However, others would argue that voting can function as a tool to build momentum for leftist political organisations.

Here’s some Lenin for you. The text is very specific to the situation his party found itself in in that specific historical moment, but it can still be used to exemplify some stuff:

The principal question for Social-Democrats who value the elections primarily as a means for the political enlightenment of the people, is, of course, the ideological and political content of all the propaganda and agitation to be carried on in Connection with them. That is what is meant by an election platform. To every party at all worthy of the name a platform is something that has existed long before the elections; it is not something specially devised “for the elections”, but an inevitable result of the whole work of the party, of the way the work is organised, and of its whole trend in the given historical period. And the R.S.D.L.P., too, already has a platform; its platform already exists and has been naturally and inevitably determined by the Party’s principles and by the tactics which the Party has already adopted, has already applied, and is still applying, during the entire period in the political life of the nation which in a certain respect is always “summed up” by elections. The platform of the R.S.D.L.P. is the sum total of the work which revolutionary Marxism and the sections of the advanced workers who remained faithful to it have accomplished in the 1908–11 period, the period of the orgy of counter revolution, the period of the June Third, Stolypin regime.

The three main items that make up this total are: (1) the programme of the Party; (2) its tactics; (3) its appraisal of the dominant-ideological and political trends of the given period, or the most widespread of them, or those which are most harmful for democracy and socialism. Without a programme a party cannot be an integral political organism capable of pursuing its line whatever turn events may take. Without a tactical line based on an appraisal of the current political situation and providing explicit answers to the “vexed problems” of our times, we might have a circle of theoreticians, but not a functioning political entity. Without an appraisal of the “active”, current or “fashionable” ideological and political trends, the programme and tactics may degenerate into dead “clauses” which can by no stretch of the imagination be put into effect or applied to the thousands of detailed, particular, and highly specific questions of practical activity with the necessary understanding of essentials, with an understanding of “what is what”.
(…)
Consider the question from, so to speak, the general historical standpoint. It is obvious (to all, except Larin and a handful of liquidators) that the bourgeois revolution in Russia has not been consummated. Russia is heading for a revolutionary crisis. We must prove that revolution is necessary and preach that it is legitimate and “beneficial”. This being the case, we must conduct our propaganda for political liberty so as to pose the question in all its aspects, formulate the goal for a movement that is bent on victory and not one that stops half-way

Basically: Elections can function as a platform for a well-organized, principled leftist party to agitate to the masses and legitimise itself in the popular culture. So in the current day if you vote, you should vote for a leftist third party to help them build momentum.

Here’s another snippet I think would be a good starting point for you, if you actually wish to understand the leftist position on elections, and not just argue against ridiculous strawmen. Really the whole book this second snippet is from is a good start. It’s not too heavy either.

But very tl;dr:

• Elections are controlled by capitalists and cannot be used to leave capitalism.
• If you have a principled leftist party, then elections can be used to build popular support and momentum, but change will still be wrought from outside the electoral system
• The democratic party is not a principled leftist party
• Capitalist parties cannot be changed from the inside
• If you vote, vote third party to help build alternatives

For reading:

• Lenin “The Election Campaign and the Election Platform” and a snippet from "Leftwing Communism - An infantile Disorder](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm) and here’s The book
• Luxembourg “Reform or Revolution”

Democrats are also throwing trans under the bus what do you mean?

And “nuance”? lmfao you are literally hyperfocusing on getting in a democrat above all else, to the point of “blue no matter who” while ignoring all points being made to you and you’re talking about nuance? LMFAO

both sides ism,

Pointing out the many similarities between the two parties’ policy positions is not the same as equating violent right wing militias with peaceful protesters, learn what the things you say mean.

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