when you’re in need for more arguments for feminism, take this
MENsheviks
I assume this is supposed to be a jokey thing, but I’m gonna say, I’ve never quite understood this approach to feminist / anti-patriarchal thought and there are times people are more serious about it (though this is one of the only times I can recall seeing it come up on here - mainly I remember it as a Twitter thing).
Like there is a lot of damage done by men under patriarchy and patriarchy needs to be dismantled, but patriarchy isn’t quite like white supremacy, for example, where the idea of whiteness is made up purely to do a racial hierarchy. There’d still be some concept of gender even without patriarchy. So it’s more like conceptions of gender become very distorted and narrowed under patriarchy (like erasure of nonbinary people). Taken in this context, the “haha, don’t men suck?” online stuff can look a bit strange to me. Because “men” isn’t the suck inherently; patriarchal men is. And beyond that, the broader system/culture of patriarchy, not just how individual men behave. It’s also a thing that women can be enablers of patriarchy / help reproduce it, such as in how they raise kids, how they encourage or discourage other women to act, etc.
The complexity of it, and the multi-pronged reproduction of it, is probably one of the reasons it seems so hard to get past. I wonder about how much it really furthers the cause when there’s a pretense of “women venting about men” being the same thing as promoting feminism / anti-patriarchy. That’s the best way I can think to put it at the moment anyway. I mean, there are standup comics who do bits that say men this and women that, and roast both, but it seems to only entrench status quo ideas of gender roles rather than challenge them.
Men need to see it as possible to be something different than the patriarchal role. Women need to see it as possible to liberate from the role patriarchy thrusts upon them. I’m not gonna be naive and say they can just organize with each other on this; women’s organizations are needed because men as a whole are not going to voluntarily give up on patriarchy. The occasional man who is trying to be better is not enough.
But I guess my concern boils down to that stuff like this is little different than the standup comic roasting X gender and it’s not really going anywhere beyond that. There are wives who complain about their husbands for decades but still cling to a patriarchal “man in charge” dynamic that is part of the source of their complaints in the first place; I’m not saying it’s their fault, but is a thing like this going to lead them more toward liberation or just give them a brief catharsis like their complaining does?
Honestly, I don’t really mind women making jokes about men, men have done much worse (I say this as a man)
I agree lmao. I don’t understand why people need to bring this up everytime like god forbid a woman makes a joke and I say this as a cisman
bring this up everytime
Before it was X, I use to hang out on Twitter. It was (to the credit of some of the people there) a significant help for educating me further left. However, I did sometimes see things that in retrospect, I’m not sure I’d align with even now, as an intentional marxist-leninist. The way people sometimes approached dialogue on gender was one of them, but I pretty much never commented on it on Twitter, that I can recall. Partly because it seemed to be a very charged thing with people who had high follower counts ready to weaponize retweets, ratio’ing, and so on, to undermine any attempt at discussion into a heated dunking session. And partly because I was trying to shut my mouth more and learn and not be the “um ackshully” guy.
By this point, I feel a fair bit more confident in the views that I have. I was still nervous of posting what I did with how upvoted this thread is and it probably coming across as challenging it in some way, but I figured that with how this place is historically and the interest in serious analysis, maybe deeper discussion can be safely and calmly had. It was a genuine challenge putting into words what my concern is, I’m still not sure I explained it very well, and it comes from far more than just this thread (but as I alluded to - my main experience with this kind of thing was on Twitter, not here).
So you can see it as “bring this up everytime” if you want, but that’s far from the truth of what I’m doing here. I tried really hard to bring up what I wanted to say while making it abundantly clear how important it is to challenge and dismantle patriarchy. And when I said what I did about husbands and wives, it came from a real place of pain of seeing up close how a woman can, despite encouragement from her grown kids to the contrary, cling to an unhealthy relationship dynamic rooted in patriarchal teaching, even when she chronically has clear issues with it.
I feel like this misses the point of what I was saying, so I’m not really sure what to say to it.
Cishet woman here, and this post definitely made me uncomfortable, even though I’m volcel for almost four years now, because of the toxic masculinity “ideal” in my area.
Are you saying my post made you uncomfortable?
Lol, no, sorry. The original post felt off-putting, I was agreeing with you.
Oh, phew, okay. ❤️
❤️🤗
MANchester (/lhj)
You definitely saved your bacon with the “/lhj” at the end there.
:3
While I understand this meme was made with the intention of fun, this kind of criticism is based only in identity, and does not address the conditions that produce and reproduce patriarchy. And this kind of identity-only criticism can be used upside down by reactionary forces, which basically reinforces the idea around men that feminism is only about hating men, and not about how patriarchy negatively affects all our lives. And we also have the reverse of anti-men identity politics movement, with anti-women identity politics by incels and red pills, which itself is a reaction against liberal feminism.
The other problem regarding this type of politics, is that it isn’t actionable. Yes, men are terrible, but can you get rid of them? Is it a desirable thing to have a society with women-only? What are you going to do with the existing men? Are they just going to disappear?
It was common during the German social democratic world in the late 19th century, which was still male-dominated, the view that woman’s emancipation would advance society. That paved way for many feminist Marxists that joined the movement and worked alongside men to criticize and attack the existing exploitative patriarchal structures. And this has made them to have real impact in society with politics like female suffrage, equality in pay, maternity leave, divorce rights, abortion rights etc. This approach is much more effective than dividing men and women into different camps that antagonize each other.
While I understand this meme was made with the intention of fun, this kind of criticism is based only in identity, and does not address the conditions that produce and reproduce patriarchy.
The conditions that produce and reproduce patriarchy are the subjugation of women into sexual chattel through which accumulated wealth and property can be transferred from one generation of men to another as well as the net benefit that men derive as a class from enforcing this system of gendered oppression upon the rest of humanity. This regime of male supremacy can only be perpetuated by a mass of willing footsoldiers who enforce the status of less-than-human on those reduced to sexual chattel and the meme is a silly way of expressing frustration with men overwhelmingly choosing to play the part with great enthusiasm.
And this kind of identity-only criticism can be used upside down by reactionary forces, which basically reinforces the idea around men that feminism is only about hating men, and not about how patriarchy negatively affects all our lives. And we also have the reverse of anti-men identity politics movement, with anti-women identity politics by incels and red pills, which itself is a reaction against liberal feminism.
Feminism is about ending patriarchy. Any form of criticism or pushback deployed against any sort of systemic oppression will naturally provoke a reaction from the beneficiaries of the system who correctly identify that their interests as a privileged class are under threat. Consequentially, no liberation movement in history has ever achieved progress by limiting itself to forms that do not produce pushback from reactionaries because the only thing reactionaries accept is the perpetuation of the system that favors them.
If men are negatively affected by patriarchy then the correct strategy for their liberation is to fight to dismantle patriarchy. Concern trolling feminist memes does absolutely nothing to further the objective of endig patriarchy so if you genuinely care about the suffering of men under it, your reaction to this post is deeply unserious.
The other problem regarding this type of politics, is that it isn’t actionable. Yes, men are terrible, but can you get rid of them? Is it a desirable thing to have a society with women-only? What are you going to do with the existing men? Are they just going to disappear?
Feminists don’t want to get rid of men. No existing feminist movement has Generalplan Man as an actual serious political objective. I have never read any piece of feminist thought that envisions a woman-only society as desirable. We want to end patriarchy. Men who chose to defend their privilege at the expense of others’ humanity are going to get trampled over in the process, and we understand the material conditions that make men buy into patriarchy, but we do not equate being a man to upholding patriarchy as an essential and immutable characteristic.
If your takeaway from this post which expresses the frustration of spending a lifetime on the receiving end of men’s participation in a horrible and exploitative system is So you want to get rid of men??? you are displaying extreme bad faith. Do you also ask PoC who vent about crackers or people from the Global South who chant Death to America if they actually want to genocide white people and scold them for reinforcing white supremacist narratives?
It was common during the German social democratic world in the late 19th century, which was still male-dominated, the view that woman’s emancipation would advance society. That paved way for many feminist Marxists that joined the movement and worked alongside men to criticize and attack the existing exploitative patriarchal structures. And this has made them to have real impact in society with politics like female suffrage, equality in pay, maternity leave, divorce rights, abortion rights etc.
I live in a post-socialist country. 40+ years of socialism and we are still a deeply misogynist and patriarchal society where women’s full humanity is systematically denied, patriarchal heads of the family exerting ownership over women and children is still regarded as normal, femicides are just Tuesday, victims are blamed for SA, and reactionaries fantasize about taking away abortion rights. The progress achieved by past socialist states was clearly not enough and we need to do better. In order to improve we need to understand why those male-dominated movements fell short. Socialist men doing some self-critique and examining their role within patriarchy, their fragility and the reactionary tendencies fueled by it would be a starting point.
This approach is much more effective than dividing men and women into different camps that antagonize each other.
Angry feminist vent memes did not divide men and women into different camps that antagonize each other. Male supremacy did by reducing women to sexual property and fundamentally antagonizing them through the denial of their humanity. Male supremacy that is dependent upon mass male buy-in and male enforcement in order to reproduce itself. The natural reaction of any human being with self-respect whose humanity is being denied by another is anger directed at their oppressor. If this natural reaction is making you uncomfortable then dialectical materialism suggests that the only serious way to resolve the antagonism and stop the anger at its source is to break the relationship of oppression and restore full humanity to all. Can you provide a few historical examples where a system of oppression has been dismantled by means of telling the oppressed class that they are too uppity and confrontational and its making the actual humans uncomfortable?
Sometimes we leftists tend to overanalyze things, and overcriticize things when people are just trying to be fun or to vent something out. You are completely right about this and I will recognize my error. I will refrain from commenting on memes from now on. But since we already started the conversation and I ended up ruining the mood, I will continue the discussion just for the sake of ot since it already escalated.
The conditions that produce and reproduce patriarchy are the subjugation of women into sexual chattel through which accumulated wealth and property can be transferred from one generation of men to another as well as the net benefit that men derive as a class from enforcing this system of gendered oppression upon the rest of humanity. This regime of male supremacy can only be perpetuated by a mass of willing footsoldiers who enforce the status of less-than-human on those reduced to sexual chattel and the meme is a silly way of expressing frustration with men overwhelmingly choosing to play the part with great enthusiasm.
Capitalism is indeed a patriarchal society based on property but I think it is very anachronistic to say that women are subjugated in a sexual chattel. Yes, this existed in previous patriarchal societies, and it still exists in some places where some older forms of property are still used. What it does exist are other kinds of contradictions, such as maternal and domestic labor which are most of the time unproductive (in the Marxian sense, those are very useful and society depends on it to reproduce itself), but it creates a hierarchy in the bourgeois family between the husband and the wife (the wife in the immense majority of cases). This is even worse in cases where a woman needs to be both in the productive role (selling her labor power) and in the unproductive role (managing the home and raising children). Commodity fetishism also create a hierarchy between all those who participate in the commodity market (selling labor or accumulating capital) and those who do not, so it’s not a surprise when many women feel alienated in this arrangement. So, in summary, patriarchal society changed qualitatively in capitalism, so old forms of oppression were erased, while new forms of oppression appeared (or were transformed).
Feminism is about ending patriarchy. Any form of criticism or pushback deployed against any sort of systemic oppression will naturally provoke a reaction from the beneficiaries of the system who correctly identify that their interests as a privileged class are under threat. Consequentially, no liberation movement in history has ever achieved progress by limiting itself to forms that do not produce pushback from reactionaries because the only thing reactionaries accept is the perpetuation of the system that favors them.
I know this. We all want communism and to abolish class society, including class divisions among men and women. And I am not talking about not producing a reaction, since our political work will inevitably produce one. What I was discussing was about the effectiveness of agitation, which in my opinion must not be about creating hate between identities, but should actually focus on the actual contradictions. But I think I went overboard with the post and shouldn’t take this meme seriously as its intent was fun, not exactly agitation.
If men are negatively affected by patriarchy then the correct strategy for their liberation is to fight to dismantle patriarchy. Concern trolling feminist memes does absolutely nothing to further the objective of endig patriarchy so if you genuinely care about the suffering of men under it, your reaction to this post is deeply unserious.
I addressed this in my first paragraph, and I apologize for this. It was not my intention to ruin the mood for the meme. I respect your right to post things the way you want.
If your takeaway from this post which expresses the frustration of spending a lifetime on the receiving end of men’s participation in a horrible and exploitative system is So you want to get rid of men??? you are displaying extreme bad faith. Do you also ask PoC who vent about crackers or people from the Global South who chant Death to America if they actually want to genocide white people and scold them for reinforcing white supremacist narratives?
I am a person from the Global South and I don’t like agitation based on “death to America”. People do that a lot online, but I don’t think it’s useful. I find more useful to show solidarity to the people who are suffering there and try to demoralize their government than to do identify hate agitation. But I am one voice among many who think otherwise. Note this is not the case for Israel because it’s a different contradiction (settler colonialism and ethnical supremacy).
And my criticism of the men-hate stuff was in relation to it being actionable. I prefer a propositive kind of agitation rather than a negative hate based agitation. If I am negative, I prefer to target their values, their institutions, rather than the people itself.
I live in a post-socialist country. 40+ years of socialism and we are still a deeply misogynist and patriarchal society where women’s full humanity is systematically denied, patriarchal heads of the family exerting ownership over women and children is still regarded as normal, femicides are just Tuesday, victims are blamed for SA, and reactionaries fantasize about taking away abortion rights. The progress achieved by past socialist states was clearly not enough and we need to do better. In order to improve we need to understand why those male-dominated movements fell short. Socialist men doing some self-critique and examining their role within patriarchy, their fragility and the reactionary tendencies fueled by it would be a starting point.
I know this as well. But the fundamental problem is that the restoration of capitalist property has very likely made patriarchy worse. It’s impossible to fight patriarchy with values alone, you need to change the economic base of those values.
Angry feminist vent memes did not divide men and women into different camps that antagonize each other. Male supremacy did by reducing women to sexual property and fundamentally antagonizing them through the denial of their humanity. Male supremacy that is dependent upon mass male buy-in and male enforcement in order to reproduce itself. The natural reaction of any human being with self-respect whose humanity is being denied by another is anger directed at their oppressor. If this natural reaction is making you uncomfortable then dialectical materialism suggests that the only serious way to resolve the antagonism and stop the anger at its source is to break the relationship of oppression and restore full humanity to all. Can you provide a few historical examples where a system of oppression has been dismantled by means of telling the oppressed class that they are too uppity and confrontational and its making the actual humans uncomfortable?
The biggest problem is that angry feminists have already become a caricature with people misrepresenting actual feminist struggles with female angst. So the effect of angry agitation today IMHO is the opposite of this intent. It barely convince women who are trapped in the conservative mindset.
But again, saying this for the last time, I know the audience of Lemmygrad, and I recognize that this space should care for people who simply want to vent out their issues. Not everything should be agitprop material, and many times people just want to share their frustration and this is totally understandable.
Menace
E.g. usage of the word
“You know, if you think about it, the problems with the prequel trilogy of Star Wars honestly go back to The Phantom Menace 🤓”
