• Tinidril@midwest.social
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    arrow-down
    22
    ·
    8 months ago

    It’s tough to be critical of “liberalism” when everyone has a different idea of what it means. It might help to specify “economic liberalism”.

    Along with it’s deep flaws, Liberalism is also associated with things like the abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, LGBT+ rights, etc. Conservatives also muddy the waters by blaming these things for economic hardship.

    • davel@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      29
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      edit-2
      8 months ago

      Liberalism has a definition, which Marxists have never forgotten, though thanks to two red scares and a cold war, others have forgotten. Now in Orwellian fashion, “liberalism” and “socialism” are floating signifiers, so we have liberals like Sanders calling themselves socialists despite never calling for the abolition of private ownership of the means of production.

      Slavery did end under liberalism, but then again liberalism started it.

      • fidodo@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        12
        ·
        8 months ago

        Almost nobody knows the academic definitions of most political ideologies, they’re just all cable news buzzwords now. If you took a sample of the population I’d be surprised if even 5% could give you the correct academic definitions for the vast majority of political ideology terms.

      • Tinidril@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        8
        ·
        8 months ago

        So that’s the change you want to see in the world. Technical linguistic grammar takes precedence over political outreach.

        I fully support your desire to spread vocabular competence. My impression from your first post was that you had other priorities.

        • davel@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          8 months ago

          Despite the erasure of the words’ meanings in the public consciousness, the concepts still exist.

          If you have new, sexier names for the concepts which will accelerate their reintroduction into the public consciousness, I’m all ears.

          • Tinidril@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            6
            ·
            8 months ago

            It doesn’t have to be sexier terminology, or even different terminology. Just don’t drop the word “liberalism” into a conversation and expect the average person to understand what your talking about.

            You could use “corporatism” which has kind of taken over that definition in common language. I know it’s technically incorrect, but language also isn’t static outside of academic disciplines. But ultimately you can use whatever language you want, just don’t assume a particular definition will be understood without explanation.

            • LemmeAtEm@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              11
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              8 months ago

              The only people I know of who don’t know what the word “liberal” means, especially in the context the person above was using it, are very ignorant Americans. To be clear, even though I don’t like most Americans, I’m not blaming them for being ignorant in this particular case because they have been subjected to decades of mostly uncontested propaganda deliberately obfuscating the term. But most of the rest of the world knows what everyone is talking about when saying “liberal” and knows it’s a right wing ideology. And everyone shouldn’t have to hold up the conversation to preemptively explain what the word means to those who don’t already know. People are generally expected to pick up the gist of a sentence or point via the context of what’s being said. The context was perfectly clear and it just sounds like concern trolling to go on about needing to hand-hold and dumb down the terminology being used for “the average person.”

            • Alsephina@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              8 months ago

              You could use “corporatism” which has kind of taken over that definition

              Neoliberalism” rather. Though that’s more like mask-off imperialism. And “corporatism” is just capitalism but when you don’t want to admit that the problem is capitalism.

              Either way liberalism is the same idealist, individualist culture/ideology that emerges under capitalism to maintain that capitalist mode of production, and must be destroyed along with the mode of production it sustains.

        • Alsephina@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          8 months ago

          Overthrowing liberalism/capitalism and stopping fascism requires mass organization and class consciousness, part of which is often understanding these basic concepts. And people did. They have to again.

          These weren’t egghead concepts back when we had a labor movement large enough to support a labor press.

          • Tinidril@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            edit-2
            8 months ago

            All I’m saying is that if you don’t take your audience into consideration, your message will be misunderstood. If you want to use the “correct” (more debatable than you think) terminology when that terminology isn’t well understood in the culture, then take the time to explain the language. Or keep scratching your head about why your getting downvotes and convincing nobody.

            • Alsephina@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              8 months ago

              keep scratching your head about why your getting downvotes and convincing nobody

              Yeah you do that.

              • Tinidril@midwest.social
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                7
                ·
                8 months ago

                I’m getting downvotes because I’m telling a bunch of bubble communists that actual communication is more important than in-group signalling. No head scratches required. It’s why the left has been hopelessly ineffective for at least half a century.

    • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      13
      ·
      8 months ago

      Liberalism is also associated with things like the abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, LGBT+ rights

      Communists had to pry these concessions from liberalism with organized violence, don’t pretend like liberalism did these things.

    • umbrella@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      8 months ago

      honestly there seems to be some confusion/distinction only in the US.

      i think most people elsewhere mean mostly “neoliberal capitalism” when they say “liberal”.