I get that anything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That’s besides the point. My point is, beyond speculation, what do crypto coins represent?
I also understand that the value of the US dollar is being questioned almost as much without the backing of gold.
But what I really want to know is what is at the foundation level of Bitcoin that people are buying into?
I have a basic understanding of the blockchain, etc. I sold 1BTC in 2017 for $1200 when I thought that was as high as it would go. At this point, at over $100kUSD and rising steadily, what is the $ limit and what is that limit based upon? I thought it was based on the value of mining to check transactions but this seems… not worth $100k to me.
I’ve been thinking, the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals. By now, there must be trillions of dollars in BTC acquired by criminals holding corporations hostage. When you’ve got people like Trump involved (either explicitly or by way of manipulation) with an executive order to establish a crypto czar, this suggests to me that he’s creating pathways for bad actors to more effectively gain more wealth. These are the people who are most excited in Bitcoin, beyond speculation.
I mean, there’s little to nothing on the up and up with crypto, right? It’s a scam. Right?
Please, factual answers only. I’m looking for someone to dispel my speculation with genuine economics of the matter.
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.” He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
This is actually quite good. OC? / Source?
It was an article published in the New Yorker in about 2014 or 2015.
I always pay my respects to a fellow knower
o7
To you and yours
i’m glad you said that, i was confused if this was either an apocryphal from ayn rand… or the great nagus, who knows.
since it’s making fun of an Ayn Rand book in the very beginning, it’s safe to assume it’s not her work. And the grand Nagus doesn’t really approve of drug use. Except for beetle snuff.
I keep this copypasta around for occasions such as these.
I was unironically checking if someone had posted this or else I would.
Thank you.
Beanie babies 2.0.
the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals.
Please, factual answers only.
In 2021, 0.15% of known cryptocurrency transactions conducted were involved in illicit activities like cybercrime, money laundering and terrorism financing
sounds like the word “known” is doing some heavy lifting there
The assumption that bitcoin is only used by criminals is much less accurate.
You’re gonna have to give me a source for that buddy.
It came from here but this source has more detail.
Is that by total number of transactions or by bitcoin volume?
I copied that from Wikipedia which got their reference from through NY times.
For specific details, this is probably a better source https://www.trmlabs.com/resources/reports/the-illicit-crypto-ecosystem-report-2022
This is not the same for all crypto currency, but a bitcoin represents a “proof of work”. When people “mine” bitcoins, they are consuming computational resources, and when they find a bitcoin, it is a certification of the work that was done to find it that becomes the value of the coin. And then, as others as mentioned, people just agree that that work has a certain amount of monetary value. But the proof of work is what limits the supply and allows that value to exist. 3Blue1Brown has a really good video that goes into the technical details if you’re interested.
Thank you for being one of the few to take me seriously and offer a thoughtful response.
I can understand now the value of a token that represent some amount of effort that is limited in its supply. As “promised”, no other bitcoins will ever be made. So this alone makes it worth something. The fact that it represents some amount of effort achieved does seem to give it some validity. Although, IMO, certainly not $100k worth.
I’ll need to think this over some more and maybe update this post with some more thoughts on the future of the coin.
Bitcoin has massive value as a tool to transfer money, anonymously, and through borders effortlessly. Its extremely valuable for money laundering, scamming, stealing, and dodging tariffs or raising money (see how much crypto is stolen by north Korea)
The US dollar actually is tied to something of value: it’s the format the us government will take their taxes in or else they will increasingly use their powers as a monopoly on fhe legitimate use of force until you give them what you owe
Crypto is only worth what others will pay for it. Which is why I don’t own it
When it was first released, I was interested in the decentralized nature of it as a currency. I liked - well, I still like - the idea of a currency that isn’t controlled by a government. At the time (2009-ish?), I also thought it was anonymous, which also appealed to me; cash is mostly anonymous, but it can’t be used online, and even then the fact that society was increasingly moving toward cashless - and very traceable, and usary-heavy - credit cards was clear. Stripping privacy is critical to control.
Bitcoin isn’t anonymous, but other cryptocurrencies are, and bitcoin laid the groundwork. To your question, I, and many other people, paid some money to get some bitcoin - I think I spent $120? Mainly so I had enough to explore the space and play with it, because even then mining seemed painfully slow. Once money was spent on it, by whomever and for whatever reason, it acquired value: the value that, if you had some, you could sell it to someone else, or trade it for goods. In that way, it has the same value as an IOU on which I’ve scribbled “Good for $10 from Ruairidh Featherstonehaugh” and signed my name. Flawed metaphor, but you get there idea - the paper itself has no intrinsic value.
Despite that mining is so horrible for the environment, the concept that motivated Bitcoin still IMHO has value. An entirely digital, cashless system, not controlled by any one organization but rather by the community of participants. If Bitcoin didn’t have the environmental cost - if it has been proof-of-stake rather than proof-of-work, or if the computational work was actually something useful to society like gridcoin.us, it wouldn’t be so controversial. Sure, people are still going to be bitter about not buying into it early, but as long as people are willing to trade goods and services for it, it’ll have real value based on market rates.
This is an eloquent way to sum up how I feel about it! Good show 👏
Money is an IOU. Bitcoin is an IOU but the ledger is decentralized rather than in control of banks.
Once you start seeing the value of any currency as one of itself rather than trying to express it in a different value system, a Bitcoin needs nothing but its inherent worth as payment.
That said, because we all still use traditional forms of currency, a Bitcoin is now worth, say, 112000 breads. It’s worth two new mid-sized cars.
Value is based on scarcity and demand. If something is hard to come by, like bitcoin currently is, the price is hardly affected. But if demand is higher than the supply, prices skyrocket. Demand dies down the moment people feel like crypto is a scam. Supply will stop since Bitcoin has a physical limit (of the top of my head 21 billion). It is no longer realistic to start mining the stuff and receiving it for payment is just silly at this point.
But to flip it around, what is the value of a US dollar, without expressing it in terms of another currency? It used to be tied to gold. You can’t really state one dollar is equal to, say, one bread. The price of bread has fluctuated. Or, has the value of a dollar fluctuated and has a bread always been worth one pair of socks?
Baseline: everything is worth one of itself and trying to express it in another value system is just a snapshot, a moment in time which will have changed soon after.
Thank you for a real answer like I specifically asked for.
The fact that Bitcoin does represent some amount of effort and that there’s a limited supply does seem to give it some value. While there is a theoretical finite resource of gold, it’s still being discovered. Which, theoretically, makes it less valuable than a predetermined finite resource. And, the US dollar continues to decline - almost by design during this administration.
How BTC is used today and in the future can continue to be debated but I’m satisfied in understanding it’s a limited supply of something that represents some amount of effort.
If you haven’t yet, I can really recommend reading Satoshi’s whitepaper on what Bitcoin is really for. The fact that crypto is now used as an asset to trade in order to gain ‘old’ money really spits in the face of the ideology of a decentralized ledger. And the fact that a dollar value is assigned to it means it becomes the target of a lot of scams. The fact that a decentralized ledger also means greater anonymity has made it a popular target for illicit activity as well.
But by design, it really only wants to take power away from banks in order to stop devaluation, make it impossible to charge people for transactions and to put control of assets into the hands of individuals. The amount of money currently in circulation is way more than the actual physical amount available, because banks can lend you money they don’t even have. Bitcoin would make this impossible.
In this world anything can have value as long as there are other stupid ppl who’d believe you. Any form of money is just a piece of paper. Gold, silver and all those are just rocks. Even food once was cherished as the ultimate wealth but now we waste food by Metric F*ck tonnes.
No one on this earth or beyond can predict what will be the value of anything. If someone says this is going to make you a millions they are either trying to sell you their course/books/etc. Or they think you are the next idiot to whom they can sell garbage.
Yea, there is an objective value, as in the average labour needed to produce the thing but there is also the value that people perceive. The more divorced from production people are, the more the abyss between objective and perceived value grows, this is how you get cardboard pokemon cards being valued at four figures or more.
At the end of the day, marketing is more about creating a mythology around a thing than informing people about the product.
The real answer is: It depends how you define value.
Can you make money with Bitcoin? Yes. Are you likely to make money? No Is the technology useful applicable? Yes Is it being used and applied ethically and for the good of people? No. Is it a ‘store of value’? No, it’s more like an extremely volatile stock or a lottery ticket. Can you use it like money? Yes Is there any reason to use it like money? Not really, not even among other cryptocurrencies.
Depending on which of these aspects of Bitcoin matter to you it will be more or valuable.
Just like anything else, it’s worth what people are willing to pay for it vs what people are willing to buy it for.
Currently bitcoin is just a digital commodity with a finite supply which makes it a good store of value if people continue to use it.
The thing is, there’s nothing preventing bitcoin from tanking and becoming essentially worthless besides people buying it because the price is low.
If in a hypothetical future the bitcoin price becomes stable then it will become a valuable commodity. It’s value is wholly derived from it’s users and nothing else.
It’s not very convinent for governments or large institutions to hold it in it’s current form since it’s too easy to steal without leaving a trace. For government use there is going to be needed some development to allow for government or Central banks to have complete control over the currency without giving that control away which I think might be possible. In that case settling international transactions in bitcoin as opposed to the dollar for BRICS countries might be an option which doesn’t use the US dollar.
All the other uses IMO are pretty much fluff such as paying in bitcoin.
Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme with a really long time horizon. In a way, any fiat currency kinda is as well. The difference is that a government backed fiat currency like the US Dollar is backed by the US Government saying “you will accept the USD, or else”. That backing keeps the game running. Bitcoin has nothing like that. The only reason it keeps going is because of speculation, money laundering and the purchase of black market goods.
So, as long as you can go buy drugs or move money across borders with Bitcoin, it will have value. As long as it has value, some folks will speculate on it. That can keep prices up, right up until it doesn’t. So, as is always the case for speculative assets, caveat emptor.
No
From a basic labor theory of value perspective, bitcoin requires labor to produce because mining it requires massive amounts of compute power. This computer power is supplied using GPUs and electricity, both of which require labor to produce.
If you use this calculator, and enter the values 67 TH/s (tera hashes per second, the rate at which you are mining), 2680 watts for electricity consumption rate, and 5 cents per kilo watt hour as prices, you will see
4.25 USD revenue per day 3.22 USD cost per day Profit rate = 32.0%
To make the values of the the hash rate and energy consumption rate realistic, I consulted the specs of the machine antminer S17, which is aparantly a machine used in the bitcoin mining world (I ain’t into crypto mining). The cost of electricty comes from Kazakhstan, which has cheap electricty and substantial mining operations.
So basically, at the current price of bitcoin can support a gross profit rate of 32% for the people who produce bitcoin, assuming you keep all the profit (no taxes, interest, rent), have no employees or maintainable costs. This is the price currently settled at based on the technological conditions and level of competition.
It is nothing too crazy of a price, and the rapid growth of price in bitcoin is due to how the currency was designed. Basically, once a certain number of bitcoin have been mined, the bitcoin generation rate per mined block halves. This forces an exponential rise in the difficulty of mining bitcoin, and therefore an exponential rise in its price.
Most probably, if bitcoin was designed to have a constant difficulty of producing, its price wouldn’t have increased at all.
What is a first edition holographic charizard worth? What is the utility of that card?
Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.
You can’t eat a Bitcoin for sustainance. Or hammer a nail with it. You can’t do either of those things with a pokemon card either.
I feel like you get this, based on your post… But you still are hung up by it.
Bitcoin’s attractive utility for many is that you can transfer them pretty much unimpeded by any external entity. Like a government for example.
Like, hypothetically, what if you wanted to send a million dollars to your family back in, I dunno, Hong Kong. Do you think you can put that in a suitcase and hop on a plane? Do you think your bank will just send that wire? No. Government needs to know about it.
You can send a million dollars worth of Bitcoin, though. No problem.
What about if the government decides to seize your assets, for whatever reason? Maybe you were a little too loud about your support of Palestine and a man child president decided to make an example of you? They can raid your home. They can seize your bank accounts. Can they get your Bitcoin? Nope (if you’re actually holding it yourself)
What sets Bitcoin apart from other currencies is that it’s very government resistant. You CAN hold it yourself. Not digitally in a bank. Not as bills under your mattress. It cant be seized.
How much SHOULD Bitcoin be worth, given the utility it provides? No idea. But it’s something.
