Which is your preferred messaging app? I just want some insights about these two.
You may share other messaging apps too.
Currently me and my friend are using a self-hosted server with Matrix, and Sable as a client.
Sable is the only one with Discord-like functions out of all the clients I’ve tried, all the others falling very short.
Besides that there is Fluxer, which is far more feature complete than any Matrix client. It has some key features holding it back, though, which are no Federation yet, and no E2E encryption yet. But otherwise setting up your own fully functional server is incredibly easily.
I prefer SecureBit Chat . No account, P2P, EE2E, Quantum resistent.
Only because nobody answered with this one:
IRC
Decentralized and an open protocol. Client setup to connect is not so straightforward, but it’s a one and done. Very robust.
I’m allergic to centralized communication schemes, though I do use signal to communicate with one person.
I want to research some of the other suggestions that have been brought up, so thank you for the post!
That’s new to me. Thanks!
Simplex
Matrix is only really enjoyable with unencrypted chats.
I have fairly recently switched phones. Now, a good number of older messenges fail to decrypt. Even when I don’t switch devices, a group chat for a three day long event with a very small group already gave us lots of fun decryption errors. Oh, and I have this other fun group chat where Fluffy Chat constantly reminds me that people whose devices I haven’t verified will be able to read my messenges every time I send something. Also, Matrix has coutless clients with different feature sets and I heard calls are a pain to ßet up.
Signal, on the other hand, just works. Federation and decentralization is obviously nice but a functional product is more importmant. I haven’t had a chance to try XMPP unfortunately.
Don’t you have your encryption key saved somewhere?
- If you have a targeted group/peer need then whatever they are using or whatever you all decide right in the beginning - I’d suggest Matrix or some other decentralised alternative, definitely not Signal.
- Matrix had the huge opportunity to be “the messaging app” but they neither became good at corporate usage and definitely ended up sucking at personal usage. They started doing too many things, at once, and while completely ignoring the individual user.
- If you want a wider general acceptance then sadly Matrix is DoA. WhatsApp becomes a huge choice outside USA and China but it has started becoming shittier by the day and looking at who has become WhatsApp’s global head now, I don’t think it’s gonna get any better (check his last “app” or company’s screenshots and come here if you don’t end up vomiting). So Signal or maybe some other similar app. You are limited by societal trends and acceptance here, not the tech or finesse or privacy of an app.
- If you just want privacy and a simpler app, proven (at least so far), then well Signal it is, as much as I hate it for reasons they decided to make it a centralised messaging app and then stuffed crypto in it etc.
- If you have a targeted group/peer need then whatever they are using or whatever you all decide right in the beginning - I’d suggest Matrix or some other decentralised alternative, definitely not Signal.
I created this to help find active matrix rooms https://activematrixrooms.com/
Cool! Thanks.
I actually prefer XMPP. It’s also less of a hassle to set up than Matrix and the protocol is much more mature. There are still issues, but it’s rather functional for audio and video calls (if you’re using a supported client).
Edit: For clients, I use Cheogram on Android and Profanity (which is a TUI) or DinoX (for calls) on Linux.
Signal. Matrix was made by Israeli spyware company Amdocs and when an employee was asked about it after the split to a UK company they pretended like Amdocs wasn’t caught in multiple global spyware scandals already.
But they say Signal is centralized, and hosted in the US.
Signal is a centralized, US-based service which requires your phone number (thus your real identity, IE name and address), has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to, and must forward that information to the US government when asked, as well as (by law) not tell you that they’ve been asked to do so. During the Obama era, 60 NSLs were issued for this private information every single day.
People overlook its privacy concerns for the same reason they do with apple: it has a shiny interface and is easy to use, and makes people very attached to it. Behind all that, is a surveillance network that its creators have explicitly said they do not want it to be able to run in a decentralized, private manner.
It has a long history of privacy offenses below (such as refusing to publish its server’s source code for years, its reliance on other US tech services (amazon, google), US-government funding, and a US-defense-tank friendly administration) which get ignored or shouted down by many of those above. See the article below.
Pretty much any alternative is better, as long as its not hosted in a five-eyes country, and especially if it doesn’t require phone numbers or real identities like signal does.
I personally have been using SimpleX for friends and real life contacts, and Matrix for larger more anonymous group chats.
has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to
Source?
US government funding does not mean it’s immediately bad… The internet, thr flu vaccine, closed captioning, and wheather radar were all funded by the US government. A truly secure messaging encryption is beneficial to the United States, and is evem good enough for the president apparently.
Since their messages are truly secure, it wouldn’t matter where you store them. Just store them in the cheapest places possible. It being centralized makes it far more usable to the average person, making it much more likely for them to use.
Good question. I looked in the attached essay source, and he covers this there https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#social-network-graphs
This is my comment to the other person, I just don’t want to type the same ideas out a second time:
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Read the linked doc, because it’s clear you didn’t.
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence.
Okay yeah you definitely didn’t read it. Large sections in that doc just before that are on phone number identifiers, NSLs, and 5-eyes countries, the US goverment pushing signal in privacy spaces… literally the reasons why signal isn’t trustworthy. Unless you can tell me what an NSL is, then I’ll assume you didn’t read it.
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
Did you ignore the large section on NSLs? These come with a gag order, meaning its illegal for signal to notify their users about them being spied on.
In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
This is a “just trust me” from signal, since neither of us have access to their centralized DB, but you also ignored two paragraphs down, where it showed that with message timestamps and recipient information, this would be trivial to find the real sender of a message, regardless of sealed sender. Again, actually open source software can’t say “just trust me” like signal can, we actually have to show code to prove it, and let people run that code in a private manner.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Elon musk and jack dorsey also endorse signal. An endorsement means nothing, especially for centralized software based in a 5-eyes country.
Insightful! Thanks. I agree and I’ll give SimpleX a try as others suggested.
Both ! Use Matrix with tech savy friends and Signal with your family
This is how I explained Matrix to my mom: its like an email address, but for chat. You can chat at me, even if we aren’t using the same server, like someone can send an email from Gmail to Hotmail. She got set up and promptly went back to texting me every dang time.
Both are options that I’m personally not too fond of, but can nonetheless respect that these probably fit the threat model of some people. Signal is not self hostable, not all that private (still better than whatsapp atleast), and it’s servers are located in the States. Does have some FOSS clients like molly atleast.
Matrix is a bit more complicated in my opinion. While the protocol itself is fine, the history behind it is what makes me not want to use it personally. Namely, it being a project that emerged from Amdocs, an Israeli telecommunications company previously suspected of eavesdropping and spying on people. While open-source and self-hostable, it has a network effect going on where everyone registers on the main instance and self-hosting is apparently incredibly resource intensive. Plus, most instances require you to give an email address.
Personally, I’d recommend looking into GNU Jami and XMPP. XMPP may not have encryption as a built-in component of the protocol in the way that it is with Matrix, it nonetheless exists as an option and there’s plenty of no-email-required instances. XMPP is also less resource intensive to self host should you wish to do that.
Jami doesn’t work with servers but is instead distributed and peer-to-peer along with being libre software. Only knock against this one is that the desktop client is based on electron, which isn’t a problem for me personally but there are people who’re nonetheless opinionated about that.
That’s some great insights. Thanks!
Delta chat and session (RIP): they dont ask for accounts or ID to chat
Have you checked out Arcane Chat?
Nope, Is in fdroid?
Signal. The app is miles better. I do use matrix too tho for some communities and for keeping an eye for the development
