https://zeta.one/viral-math/

I wrote a (very long) blog post about those viral math problems and am looking for feedback, especially from people who are not convinced that the problem is ambiguous.

It’s about a 30min read so thank you in advance if you really take the time to read it, but I think it’s worth it if you joined such discussions in the past, but I’m probably biased because I wrote it :)

  • 💡𝚂𝗆𝖺𝗋𝗍𝗆𝖺𝗇 𝙰𝗉𝗉𝗌📱@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    8 months ago

    unable to agree on an universal standard for anything

    And yet the order of operations rules have been agreed upon for at least 100 years, possibly at least 400 years.

    unscientific and completely ridiculous reason refuse to read

    The fact that I saw it was wrong in the first paragraph is a ridiculous reason to not read the rest?

    Let me just tell you one last time: you’re wrong

    And let me point out again you have yet to give a single reason for that statement, never mind any actual evidence.

    you should know that it’s possible that you’re wrong

    You know proofs, by definition, can’t be wrong, right? There are proofs in my thread, unless you have some unscientific and completely ridiculous reason to refuse to read - to quote something I recently heard someone say.

    try not to ruin your students too hard

    My students? Oh, they’re doing good. Thanks for asking! :-) BTW the test included order of operations.

    • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      8 months ago

      Just read the article. You can’t prove something with incomplete evidence. And the article has evidence that both conventions are in use.

      • 💡𝚂𝗆𝖺𝗋𝗍𝗆𝖺𝗇 𝙰𝗉𝗉𝗌📱@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        8 months ago

        You can’t prove something with incomplete evidence

        If something is disproven, it’s disproven - no need for any further evidence.

        BTW did you read my thread? If you had you would know what the rules are which are being broken.

        the article has evidence that both conventions are in use

        I’m fully aware that some people obey the rules of Maths (they’re actual documented rules, not “conventions”), and some people don’t - I don’t need to read the article to find that out.

        • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          8 months ago

          Notation isn’t semantics. Mathematical proofs are working with the semantics. Nobody doubts that those are unambiguous. But notation can be ambiguous. In this case it is: weak juxtaposition vs strong juxtaposition. Read the damn article.

            • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              8 months ago

              Look, this is not the only case where semantics and syntax don’t always map, in the same way e.g.: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/586690

              I’m sure it’s possible that all your textbooks agree, but if you e.g. read a paper written by someone who isn’t from North America (or wherever you’re from) it’s possible they use different semantics for a notation that for you seems to have clear meaning.

              That’s not a controversial take. You need to accept that human communication isn’t as perfectly unambiguous as mathematics (writing math down using notation is a way of communicating)

              • Look, this is not the only case where semantics and syntax don’t always map

                Syntax varies, semantics doesn’t. e.g. in some places colon is used for division, in others an obelus, but regardless of which notation you use, the interpretation of division is immutable.

                they use different semantics for a notation that for you seems to have clear meaning

                They might use different notation, but the semantics is universal.

                You need to accept that human communication isn’t as perfectly unambiguous as mathematics (writing math down using notation is a way of communicating)

                Writing Maths notation is a way of using Maths, and has to be interpreted according to the rules of Maths - that’s what they exist for!

                • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  8 months ago

                  No, you can’t prove that some notation is correct and an alternative one isn’t. It’s all just convention.

                  Maths is pure logic. Notation is communication, which isn’t necessarily super logical. Don’t mix the two up.

                  • you can’t prove that some notation is correct and an alternative one isn’t

                    I never said any of it wasn’t correct. It’s all correct, just depends on what notation is used in your country as to what’s correct in your country.

                    It’s all just convention.

                    No, it’s all defined. In Australia we use the obelus, which by definition is division. In European countries they use colon, which by definition in those countries means division. 1+1=2 by definition. If you wanna say 1+1=2 is just a convention then you don’t understand how Maths works at all.

                    What you are saying is like saying “there’s no such things as dictionaries, there are no definitions, only conventions”.

                    Maths is pure logic. Notation is communication, which isn’t necessarily super logical. Don’t mix the two up.

                    Don’t mix up super logical Maths notation with “communication” - it’s all defined (just like words which are used to communicate are defined in a dictionary, except Maths definitions don’t evolve - we can see the same definitions being used more than 100 years ago. See Lennes’ letter).

          • Notation isn’t semantics

            Correct, the definitions and the rules define the semantics.

            Mathematical proofs are working with

            …the rules of Maths. In fact, when we are first teaching proofs to students we tell them they have to write next to each step which rule of Maths they have used for that step.

            Nobody doubts that those are unambiguous

            Apparently a lot of people do! But yes, unambiguous, and therefore the article is wrong.

            But notation can be ambiguous

            Nope. An obelus means divide, and “strong juxtaposition” means it’s a Term, and needs The Distributive Law applied if it has brackets.

            In this case it is: weak juxtaposition vs strong juxtaposition

            There is no such thing as weak juxtaposition. That is another reason that the article is wrong. If there is any juxtaposition then it is strong, as per the rules of Maths. You’re just giving me even more ammunition at this point.

            Read the damn article

            You just gave me yet another reason it’s wrong - it talks about “weak juxtaposition”. Even less likely to ever read it now - it’s just full of things which are wrong.

            How about read my damn thread which contains all the definitions and proofs needed to prove that this article is wrong? You’re trying to defend the article… by giving me even more things that are wrong about it. 😂