Copied from reddit:
Firefox CTO here.
There’s been a lot of discussion over the weekend about the origin trial for a private attribution prototype in Firefox 128. It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one, and so I wanted to take a minute to explain our thinking and clarify a few things. I figured I’d post this here on Reddit so it’s easy for folks to ask followup questions. I’ll do my best to address them, though I’ve got a busy week so it might take me a bit.
The Internet has become a massive web of surveillance, and doing something about it is a primary reason many of us are at Mozilla. Our historical approach to this problem has been to ship browser-based anti-tracking features designed to thwart the most common surveillance techniques. We have a pretty good track record with this approach, but it has two inherent limitations.
First, in the absence of alternatives, there are enormous economic incentives for advertisers to try to bypass these countermeasures, leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win. Second, this approach only helps the people that choose to use Firefox, and we want to improve privacy for everyone.
This second point gets to a deeper problem with the way that privacy discourse has unfolded, which is the focus on choice and consent. Most users just accept the defaults they’re given, and framing the issue as one of individual responsibility is a great way to mollify savvy users while ensuring that most peoples’ privacy remains compromised. Cookie banners are a good example of where this thinking ends up.
Whatever opinion you may have of advertising as an economic model, it’s a powerful industry that’s not going to pack up and go away. A mechanism for advertisers to accomplish their goals in a way that did not entail gathering a bunch of personal data would be a profound improvement to the Internet we have today, and so we’ve invested a significant amount of technical effort into trying to figure it out.
The devil is in the details, and not everything that claims to be privacy-preserving actually is. We’ve published extensive analyses of how certain other proposals in this vein come up short. But rather than just taking shots, we’re also trying to design a system that actually meets the bar. We’ve been collaborating with Meta on this, because any successful mechanism will need to be actually useful to advertisers, and designing something that Mozilla and Meta are simultaneously happy with is a good indicator we’ve hit the mark.
This work has been underway for several years at the W3C’s PATCG, and is showing real promise. To inform that work, we’ve deployed an experimental prototype of this concept in Firefox 128 that is feature-wise quite bare-bones but uncompromising on the privacy front. The implementation uses a Multi-Party Computation (MPC) system called DAP/Prio (operated in partnership with ISRG) whose privacy properties have been vetted by some of the best cryptographers in the field. Feedback on the design is always welcome, but please show your work.
The prototype is temporary, restricted to a handful of test sites, and only works in Firefox. We expect it to be extremely low-volume, and its purpose is to inform the technical work in PATCG and make it more likely to succeed. It’s about measurement (aggregate counts of impressions and conversions) rather than targeting. It’s based on several years of ongoing research and standards work, and is unrelated to Anonym.
The privacy properties of this prototype are much stronger than even some garden variety features of the web platform, and unlike those of most other proposals in this space, meet our high bar for default behavior. There is a toggle to turn it off because some people object to advertising irrespective of the privacy properties, and we support people configuring their browser however they choose. That said, we consider modal consent dialogs to be a user-hostile distraction from better defaults, and do not believe such an experience would have been an improvement here.
Digital advertising is not going away, but the surveillance parts could actually go away if we get it right. A truly private attribution mechanism would make it viable for businesses to stop tracking people, and enable browsers and regulators to clamp down much more aggressively on those that continue to do so.
Whatever opinion you may have of advertising as an economic model, it’s a powerful industry that’s not going to pack up and go away.
Fuck that. Not if we don’t make it. That’s precisely the point. Do not comply. Do not submit. Never. Advertising is contrary to the interests of humanity. You’re never going to convince me becoming a collaborator for a hypothetically less pernicious form is the right course of action. Never. No quarter.
We’ve been collaborating with Meta on this,
That makes it even worse.
any successful mechanism will need to be actually useful to advertisers,
And therefore inimical to humanity in general and users in particular.
Digital advertising is not going away,
Not with that attitude.
but the surveillance parts could actually go away
Aggregate surveillance is still surveillance. It is still intrusive, it still leverages aggregate human behaviour in order to harm humans by convincing them to do things against their own interest and in the interest of the advertiser.
This is supposedly an experiment. You’ve decided to run an experiment on users without consent. And you still think this is the right thing–since you claim the default is the correct behaviour.
I cannot trust this.
Do not comply. Do not submit. Never.
Sure, you do that. The rest of us are trying to have a functioning society and solve actual problems, so as long as you don’t get into anyones way, fine, do whatever you want.
Doesn’t solve any problems, but at least you get to feel perfectly vindicated I suppose.
Advertising is contrary to the interests of humanity.
Geezus fuck do you even hear yourself?
designing something that Mozilla and Meta are simultaneously happy with is a good indicator we’ve hit the mark.
I think that’s true. I trust Mozilla, based on their statements and their actions, and I distrust Facebook for those same reasons. Compromise is the only path forward, despite those who argue we should reject anything that’s not perfect.
I wish I could believe that, but corporations (esp. Meta) cant and wont limit themselves. Corporations dont have any other purpose than gathering wealth and will always try to get more. Working with them only sets back privacy concerns because they cant care as long as there is money available to try to get. That is why we need a strong government regulatory system back. Regulations is what brought corps under control in the 1900s and it is what we need now. Strong privacy laws and regulatory agencies.
That’s a lot of words for “They pay us, so shut up!”.
I mean most of us got it, even those that pretended not to. But a post like this would’ve definitely been better before hand. This is what I mean when I say Mozilla are hostile to community now, they’re so happy to needlessly hide shit behind Figma links, that when something like this would’ve been challenged, they would’ve made a blog post before the roll out. It’s like with the hiding of sub directories in the URL bar of Firefox for Android, it sucks and people would’ve said beforehand, but nope hidden behind Figma. The community are there to assist, embrace them so you (Mozilla, not OP) stop fucking up please.
Edit: Also Mozilla stop running to Reddit when Lemmy is here. Where is the support for the open web?
Yeah it was a bit weird they didn’t talk about it before. Bit it was obviously pretty experimental being in nightly.
(it’s always kinda weird so many Firefox users sit on nightly, then complain about random unannounced or unfinished changes, when that’s kinda what they explicitly sign up for 🤷)
I believe the changes are in RTM, not Nightly, as Nightly is on 130 right now.
t’s like with the hiding of sub directories in the URL bar of Firefox for Android, it sucks and people would’ve said beforehand
I mean, it’s still beforehand. It’s only in Nightly.
I mean before it landed.
But it hasn’t landed in a Firefox release yet. Nightly is literally “someone wrote some code yesterday, and it’s in Nightly today”. Anything can still change, e.g. settings, defaults, anything. There is still lots of room for the community to give input before actual users encounter it.
It literally landed three months ago. Would you like me to post the exact commit or can we stop pretending to be stupid?
It’s not in release yet, right? If your definition of “landed” is “someone wrote the code and now it’s in Nightly”, then sure, but why is that a problem? If you’re using Nightly, you’re choosing to use experimental features that might not look like their final behaviour (or even get released at all).
Let’s do stupid then.
Okay, let’s go through Mozilla historically using the term
https://blog.mozilla.org/ux/2013/11/australis-is-landing-in-firefox-nightly/ https://community.mozilla.org/en/events/mozillaph-firefox-nightly-foxfooding-sep-2022/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/06/webide-lands-in-nightly/
And since we’re being silly buggers, here’s the commit https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fc7fdaf1bbcf
So yes,
your definition of “landed” is “someone wrote the code and now it’s in Nightly”, then sure, but why is that a problem?
So why is that a problem?